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Soldiers kicked out of military

WannaBeFlyer

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Several refused to do a tour of service in wartorn Afghanistan
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/10/22/4595602-sun.html
By KATHLEEN HARRIS, NATIONAL BUREAU

The Edmonton Sun   

OTTAWA -- The Canadian military has released several soldiers after they claimed conscientious objection to serving in wartorn Afghanistan, according to internal records from the National Defence department.

Documents obtained by Sun Media through Access to Information cite a handful of cases where regular or reserve members were ordered or voluntarily released from the Canadian Forces for refusing deployment.

"In the proud 120-year history of her expeditionary service, Canada has never had the luxury to afford her regular soldiers the option to pick and choose their missions," notes one report recommending a soldier's release.

"Duty, the first Canadian military value, has always been sacrosanct. No trade or service in the Canadian Forces can afford to take on a soldier less than 100% committed to duty; both the duty to the organization and the duty to those they serve beside."

In one case, a reservist was expelled "as soon as administratively possible" after refusing to deploy. The member had already received training to serve in theatre and imposed an "unnecessary burden" on the Forces, according to the heavily censored documents.

Other regular members were let go for breach of what is called the "universality of service" principle.

Naval Cadet Michael McWhinnie, spokesman for the chief of military personnel, said National Defence policy on voluntary release based on conscientious objection applies only to those who oppose war and armed conflict in general -- not those who oppose a particular mission, such as the one in Afghanistan.

Because service is voluntary, the policy applies only in rare cases where a member has an "epiphany" about war or bearing arms. Conscientious objection to a specific mission or national policy would not meet voluntary release criteria.

"You could say I love the military, I want to stay in, I'm just not going to Afghanistan, and the chain of command would probably look at you and say we don't want you in the military because you aren't capable of following lawful command," McWhinnie said.

"That's our distinction in black and white: If it's a lawful command, you're obliged to follow it."

The military considers a number of factors in determining suitability to deploy, but policy ultimately requires that every member "must be prepared to perform any lawful duty to defend Canada, its interests and its values, while contributing to international peace and security."

Steve Staples, director of the Rideau Institute, said some are enticed by flashy ads, the prospect of steady employment or the chance to help out fellow Canadians in emergencies. He believes the Canadian Forces should find other roles for those who don't want to fight in Afghanistan.

"They thought they were signing up to help Canada, not fight someone else's war in the Middle East," he said.

Scott Taylor, a former soldier who now publishes Esprit de Corps magazine, said some resist deployment because they aren't psychologically or physically ready for combat or because they get cold feet.

Many signed up to learn a trade or because they thought it would be an adventurous career path -- not to fight a war.

"There was a long time when unless you were in the infantry, you wouldn't be doing any front-line stuff where there might be some danger," he said. "So it was kind of like a lifetime of training for a war you never thought was going to happen."

_____________________________________________________________

My question:  how many soldiers is "several" exactly? Vague as usual. 

 
In an all volunteer force if someone doesnt want to do the job then they need to go.For every person who doesnt go on tour someone else has to go in their stead.
 
In one case, a reservist was expelled "as soon as administratively possible" after refusing to deploy. The member had already received training to serve in theatre and imposed an "unnecessary burden" on the Forces, according to the heavily censored documents.

bs.  I can't see this happening.  There are a thousand reasons why a reservist could suddenly find himself or herself unable to go on tour. 
 
...and in another earth-shattering announcement, GM has "let go" several employees who refused to help build cars. Bruce Monkhouse, whom drives a car, stated, "Some just aren't prepared to work with the automated machines nearby after watching movies such as 'Terminator' and should be found other jobs such as ' air bag deployer'."

Little Stevey and Scotty get to look moronic once again......................
 
In one case, a reservist was expelled "as soon as administratively possible"

Expelled?  Makes us sound like an educational institution... ::)  I guess the correct term ("released") is too innocuous. 

From all of my years as a reservist, I know that if a unit gets to the point of using terminology like "unnecessary burden" that there is much, much more to the story than "I don't want to go to Afghanistan."  The refusal to go on tour was probably one sentence in a long narrative justifying the release of a member.

So we do the most beneficial thing for the member (release them), which is a cost to the CF in terms of a trained person, and we get painted as being unreasonable. Better we should hold them to their contracts and send them to Afghanistan against their will?  I have no heartache with someone (in any job, not just in our line of work) who wants to change their life's path and move on to other things.  If the army isn't for you any more, happy trails!  Just don't expect to continue to hold down a good job and a good paycheque while not fully committed.  Those positions back in Canada that people expect they can continue to fill aren't saved for "conscientious objectors."  They're part of the normal rotation of troops in and out of theatre.
 
Reccesoldier said:
bs.  I can't see this happening.  There are a thousand reasons why a reservist could suddenly find himself or herself unable to go on tour. 

Ditto that one Recce

Per the regulations (HR Mil 20/04) that t apply to reservists, they are entitled to give 30 day notice anytime before they are shipped out of Canada.  Once they are shipped out of the country, the reservists are considered "on active service" and are subject to the same regulations as their Reg brothers (CANFORGEN 89/06).

Any decision to release a reservist that went against the above two regulations would be the subject of a grievance that the reservist would win.
 
I can hear the NDP now, consientious objectors blah blah blah....good riddence and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out 
 
Wow... I'm having a hard time comprehending this one. 

My understanding of the situation is;

A Reg F member doesn't want to deploy...  so he says he's a contentious objector?  Why wouldn't he put in for a OT to another trade? then he would have to retrain before he could deploy... or what about transferring to a Coy in his Battalion which is not deploying, siting personal reasons (family, etc)? There has got to be many other ways than becoming a "contentious objector"...  unless it's some kind of political crap.. just screaming for political attention.  Jees... unless I'm mistaken, Reg F units know well in advance that they're deploying... and anyone in the military today should know full well what is going on in the 'Stan... it shouldn't be a shock in any way. and if it is, it's time for such a member to pull their head out of the sand.  There should be plenty of time for any Reg F member to get them selves off tour, with out pulling a pin on a political grenade, before they deploy.  This is just silly.

As for the PRes Members;  WTF... seriously WTF?!?  I fought hard to get on a tour.. competition is hard in the PRes for tours.  I can name 50 people in my unit alone who would gladly go in the place of someone who decided to back out... and all of them have seen my holes and scares, and they know the risks and are still willing to go.  Hell... I'd go again right friggin now!  How can a reservist volunteer with out knowing the risks, go through selection without realizing what their going for and then decide they're a "contentious objector"?  It's not like they were drafted.  SILLY... Idiots!

I just don't understand this... but ya know what, if I were the other dudes in these guys sections, I'd be breathing a sigh of relief.  Better to weed out the objectors here than be stuck in a firefight with one over their... there is no room for contentious objectors in combat operations.

 
WRT the Regs... why would anyone permit someone to slide to another coy to avoid deployment.  You're a volunteer in the army - the day you stop volunteering & only treat it as a "job" is the day you have to reconsider what you do.  WRT CTs... while you are awaiting your CT, you'd still be expected to go.

WRT reservists, they are volunteers & I am highly sceptical of what the article says. 
In LFQAs Roto4; out of 360 volunteer reservists, 4 pulled out for reasons I would consider inadequate.
 
 I joined the Army a long time ago and have done my share of tours.  I am now a reservist and would gladly go on tour again.  I personally have no time for someone who does not have a valid reason to not deploy.  I can fully understand and support individuals who cannot deploy due to circumstances beyond their control... wife having a terminal disease for example.  

 But if you sign on the dotted line for the miltiary and then come out and say that you are a contentious objector,  you should get out of the military.  OT of another trade is not an option in my mind.  Be a soldier first.
 
geo said:
WRT the Regs... why would anyone permit someone to slide to another coy to avoid deployment.  You're a volunteer in the army - the day you stop volunteering & only treat it as a "job" is the day you have to reconsider what you do.  WRT CTs... while you are awaiting your CT, you'd still be expected to go.

Well.. My point was; there are some circumstances which may keep a member from deployment. I'm a firm believer of "Family First", If I had to make a choice between family and deployment, sorry blood is thicker than the ink I signed with. But, with that said, thats about it for reasonable reasons not to deploy.
I agree with 3VP Highlander;
3VP Highlander said:
But if you sign on the dotted line for the military and then come out and say that you are a contentious objector,  you should get out of the military. 

A true contentious objector would not join to begin with. 

I think people just don't understand the true nature of the job, and I think we've become much too touchy-feely when recruiting... Potential recruits need to know what the job truly entails, more so than how their college will be paid for... Now more than ever. 

geo said:
WRT reservists, they are volunteers & I am highly sceptical of what the article says. 
In LFQAs Roto4; out of 360 volunteer reservists, 4 pulled out for reasons I would consider inadequate.

I'm doubting the article as well... It's far too much work for a reservist to get on a tour, just to turn around and object late in the game... But it's not all that far fetched;  Case in point; I remember reading something about a reserve officer becoming a contentious objector a while back... he wasn't even set to deploy... I wonder what ever happened to him?

3VP Highlander said:
OT of another trade is not an option in my mind.  Be a soldier first.

True, but some people don't want to be at the pointy end... they just want to help the people at the pointy end.  Not all soldiers can carry the sword.. some have to carry the food.
 
WRT reservists, they are volunteers & I am highly sceptical of what the article says. 

There's two case I know of.  From my perspective, not realy a bad call for the first one.  The second one, it was with no real ground.  I have a hard time with combat arm personnal how refuse to go on combat role because they prefer to stay behind !
 
It should be made clear that people here are talking about two separate issues.

1. Little Johnny joined the CF and decided later that he didn't want to play (contentious convenient objector)...

SOLUTION: Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out...

2. Little Johnny joined the CF and after training in good faith was for some reason UNABLE to go on tour...

SOLUTION: Better luck next time, his training will be a value to the unit regardless.

Interesting to note that these problems and solutions do not change depending on Johnny's component.

A small personal note.  I was reg force for 21 years and was asked on very short notice to go on tour to Afghanistan.  For personal reasons I was unable to go.  I was told, "go or get out"... I left.

This was a personal decision, made mostly in RAGE :rage:.  I could have fought to stay (and won) on quality of life or simply by going to see the padre but I decided that I would not play those games.  You see I had resolved early in my career to never be one of those people, my departure was my decision. 

In spite of the attitudes of some key figures during this incident I do not think it would have been possible for them to force me out.  Indeed one in particular tried to deny me the right to switch components, he was administratively summed up as there was NO reason why I could not serve.
 
RHFCPiper,
The reserve officer cadet (former Navy OR) who was a conscientious objector was RTUd from his Basic officer courses - was failing his course when he asked to be sent home for conscientious reasons.  He is the NDP and antiwar poster boy who has formed the Military families objector group.
 
I, too, am having a hard time with this one.  As Naval Cadet Michael McWhinnie, spokesman for the chief of military personnel, said
National Defence policy on voluntary release based on conscientious objection applies only to those who oppose war and armed conflict in general -- not those who oppose a particular mission, such as the one in Afghanistan.

I find it unbeleivable that anyone can make it through BMQ/SQ and not know that it is the primary role of the CF to be able to FIGHT and WIN on behalf of Canada; to KILL another person, if need be, in that role.

RHFC_piper said:
A true contentious objector would not join to begin with. 

I think people just don't understand the true nature of the job, and I think we've become much too touchy-feely when recruiting... Potential recruits need to know what the job truly entails, more so than how their college will be paid for... Now more than ever. 

On BMQ we shoot at people-shaped targets, not circles or squares... people-shaped targets!  We practise violence, from the Infantry soldier on the bayonet assault course, to the Air Weapons Tech who loads laser guided bombs on a CF 18 to the sailor feeding cannon rounds into a 3" .50 gun, IS THERE ANY DOUBT AS TO THE END EFFECT WE ARE TRYING TO ACHEIVE?????

3VP Highlander said:
But if you sign on the dotted line for the miltiary and then come out and say that you are a contentious objector,  you should get out of the military.  OT of another trade is not an option in my mind.  Be a soldier first.

+1!  Everyone who serves on full time service in the CF today has unlimited liability.  You'd have to be posted somewhere really remote (like the Moon) to not have a grasp of what the CF is doing in the world today.

Live up to that or get out.

 
Reccesoldier

I, by no meen, ment to target case like yours.  It is not the place to be to specific but this case was one of cut posn in the safe rear and being transfert to a let's say more active role.  The anwers was no combat role for me !!  That, I have a hard time with.  If you volunteer to go on a dangerous mission but at your own condition, it doesnt work !!!
 
I have posted this previously, but it is worth mentioning again:

As a reserve support trade, being loaded onto OSQAB (now-a-days NETP) is rare. So as a LS during this Padre Hour I had to hand out a +1 to the message the padre had for the students. He spoke on how not to go running to padres, medics, others...when things get rough...They are there to help, but you have to sort things out for yourself. He had to deal with so many members that wanted to not sail, deploy ect...

Most of the people he was speaking to had only been in less than a year. So his message was perfect. This is the job you signed on for (even part-time) so if you can't handle it get out now. I do not see it as kicking a member out, as ensuring they know what they signed on for.
 
It's a funny thing.  I am now on class B - full time.  I have to volunteer to go on a mission.
The person sitting next to me is a Reg, working full time.  By the nature of his career, he IS a volunteer.

I firmly believe a reservist who has agreed to serve full time for an indefinite period should be treated the same way as a Reg and be subject to predeployment training AND deployment, should there be a need for him & his trade.

Opinion?
 
Posted by: geo
I firmly believe a reservist who has agreed to serve full time for an indefinite period should be treated the same way as a Reg and be subject to predeployment training AND deployment, should there be a need for him & his trade.

Yep, no argument from me !  8)
 
We had a guy in my sect who did all the work up training for 1-06, then decided that the war was wrong and didn't want to go.  He went before the CO who gave him some time to reconsider.  Two weeks later he went before the CO again and stated that he still thought the war was wrong, and wanted an OT.  The CO refused, saying that if he will not deploy with the infantry, why would he deploy with any other trade.  Remember, this is after work up training, after we all finally realised where we were going and the dangers associatted.  He used the term concientious onjector in place of coward.  Anyone in the CF, esp land elements, who refuses to go to war, should be at clothing half an hour later turning in their kit, and then half an hour later walking out the main gate in civvies.  There should be chance of an OT, or cross posting within their unit to a non-deploying company.  Don't wanna fight, then bugger off!

Thats probably not very PC, but this country is weak enough, why weaken the military anymore than the NDP, Bloc and Liberals already are.
 
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