Soldier sentenced for staying in bed during fight

[Bintheredunthat]

Anyone in the CF will agree that all 'soldiers' are trained to a different level, and although we have a soldier first theory, in practicality we have a soldier second.  And that is the problem of the leadership!  If this gut is an int op, as the pecualtion goes, then chances are, he had no bloody clue what the hell was going on.  Just because he is a JNCO doesn't mean jack in this case.  If I may specuate along with everyone else, it may have been the first time he was under fire, so bloody scared, and that is how he dealt with it.  He screwed up, bad call, nobody got hurt.  Perhapes you have forgotten that people are not as perfect as you, and that they can make  a bad call.  But no, lets just grill his performance on this forum because we all know better.  Give me a break!

Was that a bash of the Int Op trade - or just kind of a dumb comment.  So if he's an Int Op, chances are he had no bloody clue what the hell was going on???  What?!  Most Int Ops I know are Ex Combat Arms for one.  Next, INTELLIGENCE.....you don't just get to the rank of MCpl in that trade by showing up and getting a good score in Aircraft recognition.  Come on - give the Service Support guys a break.  Just because a trade MOC (old talk - I know) doesn't start with a Zero, doesn't mean a person has Zero knowledge of how to react in a combat situation.

And I highly doubt that anyone who was bloody scared would deal with a situation by going back to bed and calling the rest of the group flinchers.  Sounds like a little more that just shell shock to me.

:warstory:  One time in a place far away, we were awoken by a siren from our bunks and were made to take up position in air raid shelters (Sea Cans - pffft) to simulate a possible attack.  Our designated shelter was also shared by a group of people who did not bother to attend said practice scenario.  This group of people (some who were sleeping between shifts) said that because they were shift workers, they were not required to attend these drills.  Wow.  In a way, I always kind of hoped the real thing would happen one day just to see if a poking head would come from a bunk to say, "Hey!  Stop bombing us!!  I'm on shift in a couple of hours and am trying to sleep."

I for one have seen people get by with failure many times, and am glad to see that a rat didn't sneak by this time.

Bin

 

[medaid]

Ladies and Gents.


REGARDLESS OF TRADE, this individual behaved in a disgraceful manner. Please all just relax, and take a deep breathe. Yes, the individual behaved in a manner, which brought much discredit on to himself, his unit and his branch, however, lets not open the "my branch is better then your branch" argument. Also, let's not try and drag component into this too.

His actions were disgraceful. The end. Hopefully we ALL learn from this.

 

[fbr2o75]

If this is so black and white as some members of this forum think it is. My question is why was he not conviceted on the more serious charge, but what they used to call in my day "conduct unbecoming"?? I beleive that there is much more to the story than we are privy to.

 

[George Wallace]

If this is so black and white as some members of this forum think it is. My question is why was he not conviceted on the more serious charge, but what they used to call in my day "conduct unbecoming"?? I beleive that there is much more to the story than we are privy to.

Just to sum up for you; He was charged under Section 129 (what used to be 119) Conduct Prejudice to Good Order and Discipline.

You can read all the facts in these items:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2007/2007cm4019.pdf

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/CMresults_e.asp

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070801/soldier_jail_070801/20070801/

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/241994

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0b662e30-ac75-4fe1-af38-f4f9769d8faa&k=68520

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp#103.60

 

[The Bread Guy]

Perhaps.....In today's "kinder, gentler Army" the Prosecution was to afraid of the Public image of having sent a miscreant to prison on a "Life Sentence".  Perhaps they didn't feel that they had the support in facts, and will, to make the first charge stick beyond a reason of doubt.

Especially in light of a "let's get it over with quickly" guilty plea... ???

Don't matter the trade, don't matter the job - they fight, you fight.  +100 to those who say he'll be carrying this with him after this.

 

[fbr2o75]

Very interesting reads, especially transcripts of the Court Martial.

Thank you

 

[mudrecceman]

George, I found the piece I was referring to, above: http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/241994

He is employed as an "image analyst" according to this.  Doesn't sound like a government job to me.

As I read thru the article on the link, I was even MORE PO'd to read this POS had his defence paid for by Joe and Jane Taxpayer!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

[xena]

A nice cushy Comissionaires career is calling, he can sleep on the job there for less than 10 bucks an hour!


Wes

Hey!  Not ALL Commissionaires are like that!

Granted, I know more than a few that are...  They are the ones I constantly punt back!  Maybe that's why the Commissionaire's Head Office doesn't like me... :

 

[Edward Campbell]

It was a negotiated plea and a negotiated statement of facts.

Any and all speculation re: who what, why, how, etc is unfounded.

This entire thread is a bunch of women gossipping over the back fence, with apologies to gossipping women.

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps the solution isn't incarceration, but rather this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/world/asia/07cnd-thai.html?hp

 

[BernDawg]

It was a negotiated plea and a negotiated statement of facts.

Any and all speculation re: who what, why, how, etc is unfounded.

This entire thread is a bunch of women gossipping over the back fence, with apologies to gossipping women.

OK then if it was a negotiated plea and sentence why is he appealing?
Oops my bad.  Misread your post.  Same speculative question though.

 

[Pte AJB]

Perhaps the solution isn't incarceration, but rather this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/world/asia/07cnd-thai.html?hp

I like it! Though, I'd say this bloke deserves a lot more than an armband, perhaps a neon pink jumpsuit.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

"I would have considered a more severe sentence than what I am about to impose had it been proposed by the prosecution."

I find this absolutely amazing! are they saying that it is the prosecution that decides the sentence nowadays rather than the judge whose job it is to "sit in judgement?" If so then I think the system is really haywire.

I was present at a court martial for a military doctor over ten years ago who was accused of falsifying a medical document (so a member could get a pension) and he was busted in rank, fined $5K and given a severe reprimand. The prosecutor had recommended dismissal from HMs service but the judge disagreed. Now we're saying that refusing to obey an order in a theatre of war while in the presence of an armed enemy and under fire is less of an offense than trying to get some poor schmo a pension...wow this is a society whose values are way out of whack! My disgust factor is at an all time high! :rage:

 

[FastEddy]

It was a negotiated plea and a negotiated statement of facts.

That's what everybody is so Pi..ed Off about, or hadn't you noticed.

Well Ladies & Gentlemen I guess we better stop all this gossiping, its back to the wash tubs, since we now have heard the Voice from the Mountain.

 

[Scott]

Keep it civil or it shall be locked. No need to further derail the thread...

 

[M Feetham]

I think he got off  too lightly, and I am curious too about how the crown can recommend a sentence and the defence can agree with it,but i thought that in the end the powers of punishment rested with the presiding officer and as long as he followed the guidelines laid out if QR &O's and the punishment was in keeping with the offence he was good to go. I would also really like to know the actual reasons they withdrew the first charge and only went with the 129. I have a question for all those who have deployed, when you find out your unit is going over, do you not do a pre-deployment workups that usually involves all personnel that will be deploying with you unit/regiment/coy/battalion? If this question dances with opsec you can pm me or just disregard. Lastly wrt whose job is better that whose, everyone know that the navy rocks!!! ;D
Feet

 

[RHFC_piper]

I have a question for all those who have deployed, when you find out your unit is going over, do you not do a pre-deployment workups that usually involves all personnel that will be deploying with you unit/regiment/coy/battalion?

Yes.... and no...  You do work up from 'small' to 'big', meaning you work with your immediate organization (section) all the way up to the Full battle group... but, usually, this can't account for all situations you might face over there.  Sometimes, some people are put with organizations which they hadn't trained with on work up, but thats when you just adapt.  Training can't predict everything.

BTW, is this question in reference to the issue at hand, or just in general?  Just wondering. 

 

[dapaterson]

"I would have considered a more severe sentence than what I am about to impose had it been proposed by the prosecution."

I was present at a court martial for a military doctor over ten years ago who was accused of falsifying a medical document (so a member could get a pension) and he was busted in rank, fined $5K and given a severe reprimand. The prosecutor had recommended dismissal from HMs service but the judge disagreed. Now we're saying that refusing to obey an order in a theatre of war while in the presence of an armed enemy and under fire is less of an offense than trying to get some poor schmo a pension...wow this is a society whose values are way out of whack! My disgust factor is at an all time high! :rage:

IHS:  In the case you cite the judge gave a lesser punishment than the request of the prosecutor.  Judges have limited leeway to deviate from the Crown's recomendations, and are frequently overturned when they override the proesuction and impose greater sanctions.  See, for example, the Court Martial Appeal Court's ruling in R v Castillo, where the judge attempted to jail a miscreant vice the fine submitted jointly.

Unfortunately, if a judge overrides a prosecutor there is no one arguing in court on the judge's behalf on appeal... only the PO'd proescutor...

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

IHS:  In the case you cite the judge gave a lesser punishment than the request of the prosecutor.  Judges have limited leeway to deviate from the Crown's recomendations, and are frequently overturned when they override the proesuction and impose greater sanctions.  See, for example, the Court Martial Appeal Court's ruling in R v Castillo, where the judge attempted to jail a miscreant vice the fine submitted jointly.

Unfortunately, if a judge overrides a prosecutor there is no one arguing in court on the judge's behalf on appeal... only the PO'd proescutor...

OK I follow you but this is a Court Marital not a civil case...no difference?
Here in Halifax last year a disgusted Judge sentenced a woman to jail who beat a guy unconscious with a cement block....the man has never been the same and suffers from head injuries to the extent  that he can no longer work.....his mistake was being at Pizza Corner late at night and asking the young lady to excuse him so he could get by her.
The crown asked for house arrest because she had two kids....the judge told her to prepare herself for jail (get someone to look after her kids) as she was a repeat offender and needed to be taught a lesson. The Crown was furious but the ruling held up on appeal as the Judge was within his parameters for punishment.

 

[aesop081]

being at Pizza Corner late at night

THAT was his first mistake.....the second was the incident