So Who's Got The New Bayonet?

[paracowboy]

post edited to acknowledge edited post
;D

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

better pic of the M 9

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

why I outta...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://www.m9bayonet.com

 

[Michael OLeary]

I thought is was illegal to sharpen the old C7 bayonet.  Was that incorrect or are we changing things now?

I believe the old story about having "dull" bayonet blades originally referred to "dull vs shiny," not "dull vs sharp."

1609 -- DULLING OF BAYONET BLADES

Where facilities are not available for dulling bayonet blades by sand or shot blasting, the following alternative method will be carried out by R.C.O.C. armourers attached to units and R.C.O.C workshops:--

1. Thoroughly clean the blade, removing all traces of grease and oil, by use of soda water or other means.
2. Slightly roughen the blade with coarse emery cloth.
3. Swab the blade with a mixture of nitric acid and water (5 per cent of nitric acid).
4. Leave the mixture on the blade for a few minutes, then wash off with hot water and dry blade.
5. Oil blade.
6. There is no objection to varying the reatment by a slight increase in the proportion of acid, or a second application being given the blade, if a resulting improvement can be effected thereby.
7. Approximately one pint of the mixture is required for 100 bayonets.

(Effective 17th January, 1942.)

(H.Q. 86-13-8) (M.G.O.)

 

[paracowboy]

so is that why have I been expressly forbidden to sharpen my old POS bayonet for the better part of a decade? Because someone misinterpreted?

 

[Michael OLeary]

I would suspect "yes." Or perhaps is was a conscious decision that you not be allowed to play with sharp objects.   

There's also the underlying possibility that it was accepted by some parts of the system that disallowing sharpening would reduce wear on the blades, leading to replacement requirements.

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever seen an official regulation ordering that bayonets not be sharpened, along with the technical/tactical/ROE based arguement to justify the decision. Obviously, this means something more in depth than a local order without such substantiation.

 

[paracowboy]

I would suspect "yes." Or perhaps is was a conscious decision that you not be allowed to play with sharp objects.  

entirely possible, and really, quite understandable.

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever seen an official regulation ordering that bayonets not be sharpened, along with the technical/tactical/ROE based arguement to justify the decision. Obviously, this means something more in depth than a local order without such substantiation.

you know, so would I, now that you mention it. I wonder if it could really be as simple as someone, somewhere, misinterpreting a written order, and it becoming unofficial policy?

Another reason/myth I was told was that by sharpening our bayonet, we were illegally modifying our weapons, in direct contravention to the Geneva Convention. But, I've never really believed that one. It's always struck me as an 'Urban Legend'.

 

[1feral1]

Great pics!

Is there a chance you can show us the back side of the scabbard, as it looks like a generic KCB77 type.

I was told by Diemaco that the screw driver was to be deleted from the CF version as it might catch a chin when inverted on the TV. I guess Diemaco was incorrect, or correct with the info they had at the time.

Anyways here is a few pics for comparison (which are only minutes old), and early forerunners (daddy and granddaddy in design) of the CF's new CAN-2000 bayonet.

The top bayonet is a KCB70 bayonet for the Stoner rifle, a Dutch NWM and West German Eickhorn production, c.1970. Quite rare these days, and worth a bit of $$.

The OD bayonet is the Eickhorn KCB77 M1 for the M16 family and other rifles capable of fitting the bayonet such as the AUG, K1A1, etc.

It has a detachable frog, as the Stoner does not. The M1 bayonet is still manufactured today, and the one picturesed is about c.1989 vintage, and formerly of Australian service. This bayonet was replaced by the Aust contract M9 Buck.

Either way its obvious that all these bayonets are infact copied after the Soviet late model AKM
bayonets, of which there is many variants by various other Com-Bloc countries who produced them. For once a litttle bit of Soviet influence on the west.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Here is a pic of the Australian contract M9. Note the 'crows' foot on the blade and the scabbard. yes I'll trade this one for that bewdy of a CAN-2000 ;D

For comparison again, I have attached below some Soviet (Russian made) AKM bayonets. The black one is for the AK74, and is current, and the orange one is the second AKM model c.1986. Note the similarity in blases on this one compaired even to the M9.

Both Russian bayonets fit interchange on the AKM and AK74 rifles.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Okay, here's those Russian bayonets  8)

 

[1feral1]

The final bit on the AK bayonet evolution as follows:

Top: Russian AK-47 bayonet c.1956 (for Ak-47s only. Does not fit on AKM rifles)

Centre: North Korean AKM bayonet c.1972 (similar to original AK-47 type but only fitd to AKMs NOT AK-47s). Note no wire cutting feature

Bottom: Russian 1st type AKM bayonet c.1959 (fits AKM and AK74 rifles only NOT Ak-47s). Again note the similiarity to the western KCB series, and the new CAN-2000 blade and wire cutter apparatus.

It should be noted that numerous Com-Bloc countries had their own designs, all interchanged but differed slightly, such as the Polish version of the AKM bayonet has no saw on the blade, and the Chi-Com AKM version has no wire cutting feature. There are many more examples too numerous to mention.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[JimmyPeeOn]

What kind of mods did you have to do to fit that monster onto the TV?

Cheers;
Andrew

 

[Matt_Fisher]

My unit just received the new Marine Corps bayonet manufactured by Ontario Knife.  These things are like a cross between a bayonet and a K-Bar on steroids.  First impression:  Very sharp! Very pointy! 

Here are the specs from Ontario Knife's website, www.ontarioknife.com:

OKC3S Marine Bayonet with Scabbard
NSN: 1095-01-506-3424

8" Blade
13 1/4" Overall
1 3/8" Wide
.200" Thick Proprietary Carbon Steel
Clip Point - Full Tang Blade
1 3/4" Mission Serration
Phosphate non-reflective finish
53-58 Rc. Hardness
Dynaflex® Handle ergonomically grooved to reduce hand fatigue with positioning access point for quick redirect of positioning of blade in reduced visibility situations

Scabbard:
Manufactured with a low noise signature polyester elastomer
Fitted internal stainless steel spring friction device at throat of scabbard to secure bayonet
Ceramic-coated aluminum honing rod is located on back of scabbard
Equipped with two load bearing attaching straps with cross straps, which allows variations of placement on the load bearing equipment.
(MOLLE/PALS compatible)

 

[48Highlander]

Another reason/myth I was told was that by sharpening our bayonet, we were illegally modifying our weapons, in direct contravention to the Geneva Convention. But, I've never really believed that one. It's always struck me as an 'Urban Legend'.

:

Hey, I guess when you stick a flashlight on your C7 you're also illegaly modifying your weapon  ;D

 

[Krazy-P]

better than our old bayonet , still about 10 years behind every other army.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I would suspect "yes." Or perhaps is was a conscious decision that you not be allowed to play with sharp objects.    

There's also the underlying possibility that it was accepted by some parts of the system that disallowing sharpening would reduce wear on the blades, leading to replacement requirements.

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever seen an official regulation ordering that bayonets not be sharpened, along with the technical/tactical/ROE based arguement to justify the decision. Obviously, this means something more in depth than a local order without such substantiation.

Dull bayonets goes back to the sword bayonet - was it Strome Galloway who talked about the Elgin Regiment being called out in August 1939, and the first thing they did was sharpen the bayonets?   Too dangerous drilling with sharp ones on parade (they were huge as at that time they were still using the SMLE).   Like the rum ration and an extra issue blanket, sharpened bayonets were a sign that you were really headed for the shit.   I hope my memory on this was accurate.

If such a rule persisted into the FN and C7 era, it may simply have been a holdover?

 

[Bomber]

I don't get Krazy-P's comment, it is the "Bayonet 2000" so it can;t be any more than 5 years behind anything, if it was 10, it would be the Bayonet 1995.  Mine has a screw driver bit on it because it was a company sample, the issue ones have it removed, with the driver on it, it made everyone look like armoured guys with that tell tale scar on the chin.  I did an obstable course with it and landing off the giant steps gave me a decent cut.  If you put the OKC next to ours, theirs is a bit bigger, but only by and inch or less.  The sharpening pad on ours will last for a long time, it is a patch of ground diamond, and you will probably wear the blade out before the sharpener.

 

[paracowboy]

  I did an obstable course with it and landing off the giant steps gave me a decent cut.  

one of the many reasons why I don't wear the thing on my chest.