Small Pack Issue

[kyleg]

Just how much crap does he (and others like him) plan on bringing out to a reserve field ex? I think its a little asinine to tell troops they have to bring both, when it is the troop who has to carry them. 

Well we actually got a kit list to go along with the decree, part of which is follow up kit in a duffel to be kept in the CQ. Now, I'm all for being able to hump a ruck, but I believe it is up to the soldier to figure out what is necessary to bring and what isn't. How can a soldier be trusted to do his job if he doesn't know what is necessary to get the job done? If I can survive for 2.5 days with just a small pack and remain serviceable (sp?) that should be my own perogative (emphasis on the "serviceable"). That's what training is for, so we know what's useful and what isn't if/when we have to go into real battle so we don't slow ourselves down trying to hump un-needed kit.

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[D-n-A]

So it really has the same capacity as the ruck? You can fit as much food, ammo, water, etc in it? How much lighter is the pack itself over the ruck?

I think the '82 pack an the small pack can hold about the same amount of kit, the small pack might be able to hold more though, when you start to add all the pouches to the outside. Its really light compared to the ruck aswell.

 

[armyvern]

So it really has the same capacity as the ruck? You can fit as much food, ammo, water, etc in it? How much lighter is the pack itself over the ruck?

OK...see this link, scroll down to load carriage, click Small pack system PIP:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/3/3_e.asp

 

[kyleg]

So it really has the same capacity as the ruck? You can fit as much food, ammo, water, etc in it? How much lighter is the pack itself over the ruck?

I carried more in it than I usually fit in my ruck, and more comfortably at that. The CTS website claims it's 1.5 kg (about 3 lbs) but I'd say it's closer to 5 or 6 lbs. Still a good weight. Once you attach the 4 pouches and the valise on top you can carry a ton. I had 1 large pocket on the front, one on the bottom, and the 2 small pockets on the sides, with the valise on top, and I had a lot of room to spare for ammo, batteries, and all that other necessary stuff.

EDIT: What I like is that you can carry your long-term survival stuff in the pouches and valise and normal assault pack stuff in the maine bag, then just disconnect everything and take only the main bag with you on patrol, keeping whatever pockets you think are necessary, if any.

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[dutchie]

I carried more in it than I usually fit in my ruck, and more comfortably at that. The CTS website claims it's 1.5 kg (about 3 lbs) but I'd say it's closer to 5 or 6. Still a good weight. Once you attach the 4 pouches and the valise on top you can carry a ton. I had 1 large pocket on the front, one on the bottom, and the 2 small pockets on the sides, with the valise on top, and I had a lot of room to spare for ammo, batteries, and all that other necessary stuff.

EDIT: What I like is that you can carry your long-term survival stuff in the pouches and valise and normal assault pack stuff in the maine bag, then just disconnect everything and take only the main bag with you on patrol.

Cheers,
Pinky

Sounds ok to me! I've got a buddy with a brit bergen, and he loves the weight-carrying capacity ratio.

So you can attach a valise properly? The pics I've seen don't really tell the story.

 

[kyleg]

It comes with long attachment straps (to be used with the waterproof compression sack) that hold the valise nicely to the webbing stitched on the lid. I saw some people attach it the the bottom but I feel that it balances better on top (and doesn't hit you in the a** as you walk).

Cheers,
Pinky

P.S. I'd love a bergen, I'm working on getting one off ebay  ;D

 

[dutchie]

It comes with long attachment straps (to be used with the waterproof compression sack) that hold the valise nicely to the webbing stitched on the lid. I saw some people attach it the the bottom but I feel that it balances better on top (and doesn't hit you in the a** as you walk).

Cheers,
Pinky

P.S. I'd love a bergen, I'm working on getting one off ebay   ;D

Valise on top is always better. Too much weight low down is hard on the back (well, for me anyway). Nice to know it fits up top.

eBay is where he got his. They're pricey though. Make sure your CSM let's you use it before you buy it. 

 

[kyleg]

With our current CSM I'd be very surprised if I were allowed to to use anything but an issued ruck. BUT, and I know many will read this a scream "GET A CIVY PACK!!!" I'd still use it for hiking/camping. I can't explain it, but I prefer using army kit to civy kit, probably because I know that it's designed to handle much more adverse circumstances than a rainy night at a campsite. Being able to use one on ex would be an added bonus.

Now, back to the small pack. CTS could have learned a lot from the bergen, i.e. the detachable daypack idea. I personally feel that the small pack and ruck should not be separate, but rather the small pack should be a removable extension to the ruck. Just my $.02

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[Bomber]

Army Vern, I have spent many a lunch asking the same question, and what might surprise everyone is that fault doesn't actually lie with CTS, the officers and NCO's that make up that group put in long hours and work extremely hard to get items into service.  Unfortunately, it is the same old problems, not enough staff, not enough money at the right time, Canadian government procurement rules, PWGSC, and a bunch of other things.  As far as stuff taking a long time, it just does, nothing anyone but maybe MND, CDS, PM, and a couple of other people can do about it. 

Pinky, you are going to look like a trained killer when you walk down the road wearing a ruck on your back, a small pack over top of your TV and BA, and a duffle bag.  This is sort of reinforcing a theory that we are starting to over load the modern infantry man.  Can you publish what the CSM expects you to carry in your small pack, on top of what you already have spread out over the rest of your Load Carriage Items?  My 82 pattern was dis-assembled, and now sits in a large rubber maid marked "Legacy kit, return to Stores" 

On the plus side, I did manage to complete my super sleep system, got two new bags from Integral Design.  Oh man, the winter is about to rock.  Anyone that is looking for a lighter smaller bag, go to the website and check out their light weight bag, it is the same as the Snugpack one, but made in Alberta.

 

[armyvern]

Bomber,

I know the fault doesn't lie with the pers working in the CTS project cell. I deal with them often (and know that I contribute to their overtime...remember me and the IECS this winter???  ;D). I know it's about the money (or rather the lack thereof) ergo my comment about having to answer the queries as to why they can expend the monies to buy it all at once (it isn't there). Agreed the procurment "process" sucks in a big way (I'm a binrat and therefore educated in the ways of PWGSC.). Discussion of that 'process' managed to work it's way into our Ops Clothing working group this week in Ottawa. Seems that not alot of pers believe the current way is the best way, but hey, I guess when the money is provided by the taxpayer via the Feds we get to go with their rules and PWGSC... Although you gotta sometimes wonder, given the rate of inquiries lately, as to whether we're the only ones that follow it. ???

 

[kyleg]

Ok, This is the list we got:

Head Dress (as ordered):
CADPAT wide brimmed field hat
Green issued tuc
Helmet with cam and retaining band - white cover when called for or placed in TV or kit bag depending on orders

Uniform:
CADPAT shirt w/ rank
CADPAT pants with belt/suspenders
T-shirt, khaki
undershorts
socks
combat boots / CWWB
Jacket - when not worn to be carried in valise
combat gloves, in jacket
Personal weapon and sling (w/ EIS)
ID Discs - to be worn around neck
ID Card & 404's
message pad and pencil
gerber
white top and bottom when ordered or placed in TV or rucksack or kit bag and used when ordered

Tac Vest
EIS (mags, 'nades, etc. in their proper pouches)
1 qt canteen w/ canteen cup on right or left (in proper place)
Flashlight, pocket, right side of bayonet
C9 pouch on opposite side (for C9 gunners a box of ammo takes priority, for everyone else this can be used for whatever you want)
Gas mask carrier to be attached to left of tac vest, with strap in back pouch

Left Utility Pocket:
2 x Field dressings
2 x pair of surgical gloves (in waterproof bag)
1 x foot powder (in waterproof bag)

Right utility pocket:
Bug juice
Sunscreen
Lip balm
Cam paint
Ear plugs
BFA (if ordered)

Small Pack
Rain suit (top AND bottom)
Combat Gloves (when not worn)
Boonie hat (when not worn)
Weapon cleaning kit
Boot laces
2 qt canteen
Field dressing
1 x pair of socks
KFS
Foot powder
Rank slip

Rucksack
1 x pair of boots/mukluks as per orders/weather
2 x pair of socks
1 x combat shirt
1 x combat pants
3 x underwear tops (long or short, depending on season)
3 x underwear bottoms (same as above)
1 x Fleece, if not worn
1 x boot maintenance kit (if I get captured I might as well make a good impression with shiny boots : )
Plate, melmac
Cup, melmac

Internal pocket (I assume this is the zippered one under the lid)
1 x field dressing
Foot powder
Para cord / Bungee cords
(I keep cheap, light metal tent pegs from Crappy Tire as well, great for securing the hootch sides)

*Outer pockets to be left empty for ammo/POL/rats

*This actually leaves quite a bit of space in the main compartment, I transferred the towels and jacket from below to here (main ruck compartment) in order to balance the load better

Valise
Sleeping bag (inner)
Sleeping bag liner
Bivy bag
Thermarest
"Utility sheet" (i.e. ground sheet)
Hygiene kit
Face cloth, khaki
small towel, khaki
Bug net
combat jacket

Follow up kit in duffle (locked) - to be kept in the CQ and deployed if needed
1 x Combat shirt
1 x Combat pants
2 x underwear tops (long or short, depending on season)
2 x underwear bottoms (same as above)
2 x pair of socks
1 x pair of boot laces
laundry bag
Bath towel, khaki
hand towel, khaki
lock (key or combination)
Bug net
ALL winter kit (outer sleeping bag included)

Some side notes that are not on the list, but were passed on by word of mouth:
NO "big" knives. If it can bee seen hanging below your combat shirt, it's not allowed.
The small pack MAY NOT be used as a ruck.

Needless to say this does not include all the platoon/company stores we have to carry, plus all the other kit we need/want that isn't on this list (like balaclava and neck tube, or the ranger blanket, for example)

That's it, our kit list for this training year.

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[The_Falcon]

All I can say is wow, I guess when you got off you QL3/BIQ and you got your regimental insignia for your headdress, they were actually just messing with you, your course never ended.  That or your CSM has way way to much friggen time on his hands.  Our CQ (were I happen to be employed at the moment) would accept follow on kit in the stores, and we definetly would not be taking it with us/storing it for the troopies for bloody WEEKEND exs.  Someone needs to find the the switch labelled "Course Mode", on your CSM and switch it to OFF!

 

[Bomber]

That is certainly an intense kit list, a bit excessive, but hey, if you have everything, then you should need nothing.  I don't see how you will carry your small packs though, and why everything in the small pack would only fill one of the larger external pockets on it.  I don;t know man, seems like a sketchy kit list.  Follow it, but bug nets are not of any real value soon (fall/winter), and there are certainly a bunch of other things that can be removed as weather changes.  Seems you guys were just issued your clothing docs and told where to put absolutely everything.  Boot polish is a good touch though.  Just for giggles, try and load your small pack with a bunch of practical things, and then see if you can drop it into the main pouch on the ruck, I know it works this way on the new ruck, but maybe it will work on the old one as well.  Remove the pouches on it first though and cinch it down nice and tight.

 

[kyleg]

  Not a bad idea... I didn't know the new CTS ruck accomodated that, seems they actually got something right ;D I'm gonna go try that right now.

Cheers,
Pinky

P.S. As an aside, though a kit list may be somewhat unusual for reserve exes, please don't take it out on the CSM. I don't know him well, but I DO know there is a lot I can learn from him. At the very least having to carry all this kit well bring everyone to the same level (more or less) in terms of strength and endurance on ruck marches.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

If you look here you can kinda see what people are talking about on how to secure the Valise.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/pdf/SPS-UserGuide_e.pdf

 

[armyvern]

  Not a bad idea... I didn't know the new CTS ruck accomodated that, seems they actually got something right ;D I'm gonna go try that right now.

Hey!! Guess what it isn't even the new ruck. It's the small pack system. Totally different item. Aren't you lucky?    ;D

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/2/27_e.asp

 

[brihard]

Aw man, I love my Small Pack. As the original poster mentioned, we got issued them at the Camerons this past thursday. I went out for a 10k ruck march with it along the Ottawa river a few days later to see how it feels on a hump a bit longer than the walk to and from the bus stop. I wlaked baout 8800 meters, then jogged the last 1200m to see how it feels when moving fast and bouncing around. (In combat boots. Oops)

Aside from being a nice walk, I figured out just how damned comfortable it can be. Rigging the valise on top was a minor pain i the ***, but I figured the best way is to put my air mattress underneath the main flag, helping to prop it up perfectly horizontal if the bag isn't arleady full. The valise straps go through both sets of modular daisy chains, and then the carry handle behind the head. It holds the valise night and tight on top. It's wonderfully balanced this way, but still leaves room for wearing helmet, etc.

As for my general kit laodout, (which is always evolving towards mroe efficieny), it's something like this.

TacVest
-Both C9 pouches atached
-3 Mag pouches hold mags. Fourth mag pouch left open for energy bars, etc. Fourth mag in rifle, fifth held in a mag pouch on rifle butt (yeah, I bought one of those. Easier for fast mag swaps)
-Left C9 pouch: Generally my message pad, plus other misc small items Field dressing in smoke grenade pouch if there's no smoke grenade
-Right C9 pouch: 2qt canteen if I'm not using a camelback. If I am, generally the .9l insulated thermos canteed full of whatever hot brew I've mixed up lately. Nothing like a hot swig of awful coffee when you're kicked awake at 0300 for patrol. Better coffee is an incredible luxury. Right smoke grenade pouch generally holds a squished roll of camo duct tape. I don't think I've ever been on an Ex and not needed duct tape for something
-Grenade pouches: If no grenades, then random bits of Misc. Earplugs, etc. One grenade pouch also holds a little headband red LED/ Blue LED / white light that I managed to rig to my helmet. I just set this up; haven't used it yet. Trying to figure out if I'll actually find it useful; maybe for nighttime map reading?
-Utility pouches: Left one holds cam paint/mirror, foot powder, sunscreen, lighter. On reflection, I'll put my earplugs here too. Right one usually holds my cadpat field hat and fifty feet of para cord. When I wear the hat, of course, it frees up an almost empty pouch for whatever. Vector bars, etc.

Small pack
- Main pouch: spare change of combats. Spare socks, tshirt, adn underwear. Goretex socks (aka my second pair of boots). Tower. Shave kit. CADPAT nuke bag for going out on patrol. I expect that with the new large pouches from the small pack this nuke bag will fall away from being used. I generally used it for snivvel kit like my jacket when not worn, or for carrying C6 cans. I think a C6 can will fit in the new large pouches. I'll keep the nuke bac just in case thogh; it takes up very little space, and you never know when you might need a nuke bag. Oh, there's generally a bag of campinos in my bag somewhere as well.
-Small side pouches: One of them holds my canteen cup and stand, which inside it holds hexamine tabs, MRE heaters, matches, plus whatever quantity of instant coffee, sugar, and powdered whitener I can get my hands on. On top of this in the pouch I have an old 82 webbing C9 pouch stuffed with 1st aid kit- 2 field dressings, second skin, elastoplast, burn ointment, bandaids, medical tape, etc. The fact that I can shove all of this into one of the side pouches make me happy. The other side pouch is currently empty. Empty pouches are good; bits'o'misc tend to fill them up as you get given minor bits of gear or whatnot to carry.
-Big (fanny pack) pouches: Both currently empty. I figure I'll hold onto them for C9/C6 ammo. I'll likely put one of these on the bottom of my small pack, and wear the other one as a fanny pack.
-Top zippered pouch: Not sure yet. I'll probably keep a spare change of socks, towel, and goretex socks here for that quick sock change after you immerse your feet.

Valise
Sleeping bag inner (I never use the outer unless it's about -40; I sweat like a beast in that thing), ranger blanket, bivvy bag, ground sheet. I'll probably invest in a smaller lighter sleeping bag at some point... My valise has the Stay-Puft look going on.

Camelback stuffed in whatever nook and cranny of small pack seems most convenient; alternatively, carried in nuke bag on patrol, or worn on back if I'm only wearing tacvest.

I also got a modular grenade pouch form Wheelers today that I'll use for my GPS. I found the pouch is a lot alrger than I thought, so a few things may migrate. Alternatively, I'ljust keep a spare lanyard and use the same pouch for GPS and Compass. I also need to figure out a place for my ballistic glasses. Maybe I'll use on of the vest utility pouches for that, and migrade the para cord to a different pouch- that spare C7 pouch, maybe.

As for bringing both SPS and ruck on ex, that seems idiotic. The SPS carries as much as the ruck, and in fact the exterior pouches hold more. On top of that, it's mroe comfortable. I intend never to use my ruck again if at all possible. If my CSM gives me crap for just using my small pack I'll probably cry. That being said, a number of Camerons have various configurations of issued 82, issued 64, aftermarket 64, and even a few more exotic packs, so I should be good. Granted my particular packing means I can't easily use the SPS for going out on a raid or something, but large pouches and if necessary nuke bag give me all the room I need to mission kit.

 

[career_radio-checker]

Were did you put the kitchen sink? :blotto:

 

[brihard]

I keep that in the extra bit of space between my helmet and the supporting harness that ohlds the helmet to my head. I went over to Lightfighter and ordered one of their HiSpeed Tac-Sink XTreme systems.

Nah, I generally don't carry many things that I don't consider useful. The headband light is questionable, but I'll try it out first. I eschew a spare set of boots for goretex socks, I see the first aid kit as a necessity, and the heating stuff for coffee is my one real allowance for snivvle kit. The GPs saves me time and is useful when the nav guy is all out to lunch and the Sgt. asks in exasperation 'Can someone tell me where we are?' I don't really carry anything that I don't consider useful. If there's anything you'd like to make a reccomenation on though, I certainly welcome it.

 

[Roger]

This is a excellent piece of kit. And I use one of the extra pouches on the bottom of my Tac vest, when I throw the pack back on I can leave it or re-attach it on the small pack. Aside from my closet getting full of kit, I love this pack.