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Sleep Issues on course [MERGED]

Show up to the course very physically fit an eat constantly while you are in the field while also drinking tonnes of water.  Whenever you get a break for a meal eat as much as you can.  When they bring a haybox go for seconds.  You will be working continuously and you will be functioning off no rest so the only way to keep yourself from burning out is to eat a lot of food and drink lots of water.

Stay away from all supplements and that other crap, if you are caught with that stuff you could be in a lot of trouble. 
 
In the field, with a lack of sleep i'm the kind of person that can't eat a lot, even in the normal life.
RoyalDrew you said ''Stay away from all supplements and that other crap'' you mean i can't bring protein powder, gatorade powder, beef jerky and that kind of stuff? This could help me taking more calories if i cant eat them why not drinking them.
 
veelox321 said:
Hi,
first of all i'm actually in the reserve as an Infantry Officer. I'm not actually all qualified, still missing the
IODP 1.1 (Phase 3). I've heard a lot about his course that it's 6week and then 10 days in the field followed by 4 off days 4times in a row. I'm just concerned about the sleep deprivation, I've already done 6days in a row and dont add a lot of problem. But 10 days could it be bad? If there is infantry officer here, do you have an advice for me to last 10 days?
Hello
Water is your friend.  Keep hydrated. 

Now, the course is 6 weeks (or so) in garrison, followed by several in the field.  From personal experience, the sleep deprivation is just something you have to deal with, and I found the time in the field much better to deal with than the garrison.  Don't worry about protein powders and crap.  Just bring some candies and such if you must, but you won't need much.  The course will ensure that you get plenty of food.  You may not have much time to enjoy your meals, because it *is* a tough course.

Just savour every minute of it. 
 
RoyalDrew said:
Stay away from all supplements and that other crap, if you are caught with that stuff you could be in a lot of trouble.

Regarding supplements. We had one guy on course who was very fit but also a supplement freak. He would (I'm not joking at all) have a handful of pills during his breakfast. When we went out to the field for the first time, he had limited supply of his supplements and water and completely crashed, and flunked the course. You can become dependent on over the counter supplements etc so beware.
 
As a long distance runner at least in my own mind I like Gatorade. Keeps the electrolytes up. I used to bring it to the field and after a long day I'd share it with the section. Powder form and mixed with water.
 
veelox321 said:
In the field, with a lack of sleep i'm the kind of person that can't eat a lot, even in the normal life.
RoyalDrew you said ''Stay away from all supplements and that other crap'' you mean i can't bring protein powder, gatorade powder, beef jerky and that kind of stuff? This could help me taking more calories if i cant eat them why not drinking them.

Your ration packs will have electrolyte powder in them so there is no need to bring extra stuff with you.  Eat rations and eat as much food as you can when they bring a haybox to the field.  Drink tonnes of water as technoviking said and you should be fine. 

You won't have room in your rucksack for all those creature comforts so learn to live without the gummy bears, beef jerky, gatorade powder, etc...

What I would invest in though is a nice little portable stove ;) and not for cooking but for your trench so you can throw your poncho over you and your buddy and keep warm.

Edit:

 
I've seen people use this fairly successfully.
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I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny. 
Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny. 
Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.

You're entirely correct - which is likely the reason we had only blanks and were not allowed to touch anything that we could damage (besides ourselves - which happened often).  I remember watching individuals (including myself) try to march and nap at the same time - quite a few ended up in ditches or falling over.  Trying to lead a night patrol on day 8 was..... interesting. I remember sleeping around 3-4 hours for the  10 days of offensive, and about as much during the 10 day defensive.  I'm also fairly sure I blacked out for minutes at a time without knowing it as well.

This was also the same course where it was jokingly suggested by a staff member that killing a bear would ensure you passed - and a few weeks in, when confronted by a black bear, started looking appealing and possible with bayonets.

If you can handle basic leadership skills when operating at that level of awareness, you "should" be able to lead effectively otherwise.  YMMV.
 
Now, the course is 6 weeks (or so) in garrison, followed by several in the field.

Is the course still delivered in Mods and is the whole course still 12 weeks? I understand delivery in modules is a sore point with some DS at the Infantry School but for many reservists there is no other way to make the training fit with civilan employment.

Another problem is course cancellations; I was loaded this fall and the course was cancelled on short notice; my employer was quite... underwhelmed.
 
Loch Sloy! said:
Is the course still delivered in Mods and is the whole course still 12 weeks? I understand delivery in modules is a sore point with some DS at the Infantry School but for many reservists there is no other way to make the training fit with civilan employment.

Another problem is course cancellations; I was loaded this fall and the course was cancelled on short notice; my employer was quite... underwhelmed.
The course is not delivered in modules.  And it's close to 12 weeks, but I don't have the exact number. 


As for not making the mod system work, it has been of benefit of a slim majority of reservist officers over the past decade or so.  Something on the order of 10%.  And unit COs are hesitant to wait 5 years (or more) to have a 2Lt qualified to be platoon commanders for them, when they can easily get others to commit to the course in one shot.

As for cancellations, that's just how the ball bounces sometimes.  And it's a decision not taken lightly.
 
Has the change away from mods been communicated outside the infantry school? It doesn't seem anyone out here (including my adj) is aware of this.

It may be easy to get officer candidates willing to commit to 3 month blocks of time (which may or may not actually run, and i do undestand that things happen) in other places but in Alberta at least it hasn't been that simple.

Right or wrong it's been very difficult for my unit and others to get officers through the training system. I certainly understand the need for the infantry school to maintain the course to a very high standard, however the school (admittedly from my worms eye view) does not seem to be able to train enough infantry officers to keep reserve units at full complement.

From my perspective it's because the training is not delivered in a way that takes into account the competing demands that reservists face. Do I really need to fight to leave my job for three months straight for a course that may be cancelled just weeks in advance? Certainly things like weapons and FFQ could be offered at the unit level which would shorten the length of time in Gagetown considerably.

Does the course need to be extremely challenging? Absolutely. Bring everyone to Gagetown for 4 or 6 weeks field time to make sure the standard is met. But I can learnthe C6 and field firing just as easilyin Suffield and/ or wainwright.

Respectfully it's not enough to say its "easy" to find guys who can and will do it, when the reality for units has been opposite to that. If the training system is honestly dedicated to train the reserve force as well as the regular force (and it has a duty to be...) then training must also be designed to work for the reserves.
 
Loch Sloy! said:
Has the change away from mods been communicated outside the infantry school? It doesn't seem anyone out here (including my adj) is aware of this.

It's old news. They stopped allowing Reg Force pers to go through module by module at least 2 years ago, and at that time only allowed any PRes pers who already had a module or two to finish up by mods. Any new PRes people would have to go through in one shot just like everybody else.

Loch Sloy! said:
Right or wrong it's been very difficult for my unit and others to get officers through the training system. I certainly understand the need for the infantry school to maintain the course to a very high standard, however the school (admittedly from my worms eye view) does not seem to be able to train enough infantry officers to keep reserve units at full complement.

The school trains who ever, and they run some damn big serials (4 platoons at a time) if there is enough people being sent to Gagetown. It's up to your unit to recruit enough people and send them on the course.

Loch Sloy! said:
From my perspective it's because the training is not delivered in a way that takes into account the competing demands that reservists face. Do I really need to fight to leave my job for three months straight for a course that may be cancelled just weeks in advance? Certainly things like weapons and FFQ could be offered at the unit level which would shorten the length of time in Gagetown considerably.

Does the course need to be extremely challenging? Absolutely. Bring everyone to Gagetown for 4 or 6 weeks field time to make sure the standard is met. But I can learnthe C6 and field firing just as easilyin Suffield and/ or wainwright.

Respectfully it's not enough to say its "easy" to find guys who can and will do it, when the reality for units has been opposite to that. If the training system is honestly dedicated to train the reserve force as well as the regular force (and it has a duty to be...) then training must also be designed to work for the reserves.

A few years ago when Col Aitcheson was the CO of the Infantry School and the course was still run in Mods (but they were trying to make the argument that it should not be), and I was one of about 120 candidates on Ph III when he asked us all "Please raise your hand if you are doing this course by modules." Despite there being plenty of reservists (I would say at least 30-40), only two raised their hands.

A decision was made that the standard for the entire Infantry Corps would not have to suffer a course layout that sucked both for learning/training and also for holding a high standard, just to accommodate the 2 - 8 reservists each summer that wished to complete the course in Mods.



That's all well and good that you think the unit can provide you with weapons training and FFQ, and you can just come to Gagetown for 6 weeks and "meet the standard." But, its a rite of passage in its own sense to complete the course *as a whole* and not broken down into chunks.

By the time my platoon made it the field portion, we had dropped from 35+ down to 20. Those remaining had lost a lot of weight, had sustained a few injuries, had huge blisters and other owies, the course staff knew who they were, a lot of us were already introduced to the "warning system" via red chits, and we were about to head into the harder portion of the course in that condition.

Showing up for that 6 week period in prime condition, well-fed, well-rested, and after a few good weeks in the gym and doing road work in the prime weather of May and June, was not quite meeting the same standard that those who had done the full course in one shot had to meet.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny. 
Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.

Officer training emphasizes going on forced rests to ensure that one remains a combat effective leader. Officers who fail to take adequate rest do so either because they don't understand how ineffective they have become or because they think they have to be there 100% of the time -- you don't, this is why we have subordinate leaders and 2i/cs.

Obviously what time is available for sleep and how much an individual needs is very much determined by the circumstances and level of fitness. I challenged myself once during a CPX (mental work but no significant physical activities involved) to see how far I could go without any sleep whatsoever. I noticed some deterioration in performance after 48 hours and basically became ineffective after 72 hours. On the other hand I can go several weeks on limited sleep(2-4 hrs per day). One technique I always found helpful was to do for micro sleeps (10-15 mins) whenever the opportunity arose.

I doubt if there is anyone who can do five days without any sleep whatsoever without walking into walls for the last two days. Ten days? No way! No matter how fit you are.

One thing about junior officer training. We challenge their schedules during training for several reasons. The primary ones are to see how they manage their time and resources and to see how they operate and react under stress.

:cheers:
 
The old saw:

Don't stand when you can sit;
Don't sit when you can lay; and,
Don't lay when you can sleep.

Always applies.
 
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