Ok, enough - I don't think this thread needs to turn into a pissing match and it is straying away from its original intent.
That being said, I want to reply to kincanucks (that got screwed up previously, hence the blank response):
kincanucks said:
Boys. Don't get me wrong if you want to go to the US and join their military fill your boots.
No, no, no - we can't take that attitude.
Sure, there will be a few different types that we will always lose to other forces. Some go to the US or Britain because they want to go on an Aircraft Carrier, fly a jet, or be a Ranger - that's their prerogative. Some have also left after 9/11 because they feel that the US offers them a better place to do their part - this is something that we shouldn't worry about either.
However, there are people leaving because they don't find the sort of professional satisfaction that they should up here. The military is (or should be) a career for most people, not something to dabble in. If there are shortcomings in the CF that are leading people to other places that
we have control over, we should do our utmost to point them out.
That being said, I'm constricting my last few posts to an outlook that goes beyond 9/11. Sure, the War on Terror is going to kick up a few guys you are looking for a cause, but most soldiers don't join for a cause, they join for some sort of professional fulfillment, and if the CF is falling short in some respects in providing this (lack of challenging training, lack of career opportunities, etc, etc) then maybe we should rethink some of our methods of doing things.
But I really don't see this grand exit of good potential CF applicants that you do because there is one big difference between the US military and ours. People die on a regular basis and I don't think that many of the applicants that I see on a daily basis would be that interested in joining if they knew their chances of getting killed were all of sudden significantly higher.
I'm going to disagree on this point. The Army has lost 7 soldiers in Afghanistan and recently has a submariner come home. The airforce has had its casualties as well, with the helicopter accident (a Griffon, IIRC) and the Snowbird fatality in the last year or so. These were all fairly well publicized losses, and - despite, for the most part, being out of the combat that our allies are in - I think the Canadian public is fully aware that being in the military can be very dangerous.
As well, I don't think it is good to be recruiting people on the basis that the "CF is much safer then other militaries, I won't get killed" - if this is indeed an attitude we are allowing to persist (past basic?) then we are not doing a good job of impressing the obligation of unlimited liability upon our members. They must know (and I'm sure most do) that the government could send them all to somewhere like Iraq and that they too could be coming home as a casualty.
Finally, saying that the CF is more attractive to young people because they know they won't get killed doesn't really have the historical precedent. When the US opened its doors during the Vietnam War, some 10,000 (conservative estimate) to 30,000 (generous estimate) Canadians went South
knowing full well that they would go to Vietnam and fight. Can the CF afford to lose a potential 10,000 people now (either serving members or potential members)?
Remember, I'm not interested in the people who leave the CF to fight in a post 9/11 world or want to Captain a nuclear submarine - I'm concerned about those who lose interest because:
1) They are in and they find no real basic challenges that serving in a military can provide.
2) They want to get in but face too much waiting time between civvie street and becoming a trained soldier.
If people find an easier path to meeting these goals by heading south - which they are, as I've personally seen a bunch head to other countries - then the CF is coming up short in some basic matters that should be addressed. I am willing to bet if you did an informal poll on Army.ca, you'd find a fairly alarming number of guys would head south if given an easy path to do so - I'm not talking about a mass exodus, but I'm talking about a chunk of soldiers that we can't afford to lose.
Sure there are many problems with the CF and I have seen a myriad of them in the last twenty plus years but I would hazard a guess that life in the US military is not that rosy either. I will agree with you on the fact that Americans certainly treat their service people a lot better and I would certainly love to see more patriotism in this country.
You are right - I've consistently argued that the CF has its strengths and that we should never sell ourselves short. As well, the "Grass is always Greener on the Other side of the Fence". And I certainly don't want this to appear like some sort of whine against the CF - we are treated quite well (look at are pay, hard to match). The reason for my response is that there are other, more fundamental areas where the CF may need to dedicate real energy to "shore up" recruiting and retention issues. As I said before, I don't want to see young Canadians leave Canada because the CF didn't provide a challenge (or an opportunity).
