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Should Canada adopt the LAV III (AKA: Stryker) as its primary armoured vehicle family?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brock
  • Start date Start date
Ok fellows, i am not an expert on armour at all, but what about a combination of lavIIIs and attack (anti-armour) choppers (cobras, ah-64)...
Might have been discussed anyway. There is also an air defense platform based on the lav chassis (gatling gun + tow-stinger type of AAM) out there (american i guess).


 
Another article on the Stryker. Same stuff.

http://globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050401-stryker-report.htm

Report rips Army vehicle
Critics contend Michigan-made Stryker fails to protect soldiers from blasts.

In-Depth Coverage

By Lisa Zagaroli / Detroit News Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- The Army's most modern troop carrier, the Stryker, has failed to adequately protect soldiers from certain explosive devices and has demonstrated problems ranging from seat belts that don't fit around armored soldiers to tires that have to be replaced frequently, an internal Army report indicates.

The light armored vehicle, engineered in Sterling Heights by General Dynamics Land Systems and touted as the future of Army transportation, made its debut in Iraq over objections by some officials that it wasn't ready to be fielded.

Everything from the vehicle's communications technology overheating to the accuracy of its weapon systems were called into question in the report, published by the Center for Army Lessons Learned and made public Thursday by the Project on Government Oversight, a nonprofit watchdog group.

"It has several flaws and some challenges," said Eric Miller, defense investigator at the oversight group. "We were concerned that it wasn't tested well enough, it was kind of rushed through. When you send something like an armored vehicle into combat and it's not really tested, you kind of give soldiers a false sense of security."

The Army report was based on interviews this fall in Mosul, Iraq, with the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, Stryker Brigade Combat Team.

A Pentagon spokesman defended the Stryker and said the report showed that the Army was willing to go in and retool after the development phase to make sure the vehicle works well in real-life situations.

"The reports we get from the field overwhelmingly is that the vehicle is performing in an outstanding manner," Lt. Col. Kevin Curry said.

"Soldiers say they appreciate the vehicle, they want to stay in that unit, they want to go back, and if they go back they want to go in that vehicle. You couldn't get a better stamp of approval or show of confidence."

Some of the issues in the Army report mirrored problems outlined by The Detroit News last July in a series of stories about military vehicle safety, which focused on inadequate safety features and poor driver training in the Army fleet.

The Stryker, previously known as the interim armored vehicle, is lighter than other troop carriers and reflects an Army shift toward a more mobile fleet. General Dynamics has delivered at least 1,000 Strykers to the Army, and more than 300 of them are now in Iraq.

During the vehicle's development stage, the armor on the Stryker was determined to be inadequate, so the Army had to develop a "bird cage" type assembly of armor slats that adds 3 feet to the vehicle's width, according to Globalsecurity.org, a nonprofit group that analyzes defense policy.

Soldiers had been assured that the slat armor would protect them from eight out of 11 rocket-propelled grenade attacks, but the actual experience in Iraq was that soldiers were harmed in half of such attacks because the shrapnel was able to penetrate the slats. The armor also deflected only half of attacks by high-explosive anti-tank rockets, the report said.

Curry said he didn't have official statistics, but that the actual success rate of the armor was much higher.

He said only one rocket-propelled grenade had penetrated enough to make the vehicle inoperable, and that attack came from above the vehicle.

Aside from not providing the protection it was designed for, the added armor cage also makes the vehicle more difficult to operate in rainy conditions, to transport by plane, and to tow away when it gets stuck or breaks down, according to the report.

"Slat armor significantly increases the circumference and weight of the Stryker, changing its performance," the report said. "Drivers did not receive any training on driving with slat armor until it was installed in theater."

The Stryker initially was touted as easy to maintain in part because it had tires that could be inflated and deflated with a control inside the vehicle, but having the extra armor cage forces the soldiers to do it manually because extra pressure is needed in them.

Crews have to check the tire pressure at least three times a day to maintain the proper pressure levels.

The single-ply sidewall tires were designed primarily for off-road use, but the Strykers are primarily being driven on hard pavement, leading to the brigade replacing about nine tires a day.

At least 24 crashes involving Strykers have been documented by the Army Safety Center.

In two rollovers, three unbelted soldiers died. Their deaths didn't prompt more seat belt use because the troops couldn't latch them when they were wearing their body armor and other gear, the internal Army report concluded.

In a separate report by the Army Safety Center, accident investigator Sgt. 1st Class John Temple said he was investigating a Stryker rollover that killed two unbelted soldiers and the brigade's soldiers told him he didn't have to wear his seat belt on the way to the accident site.

"I couldn't believe what I was hearing," he wrote in March for the Army's monthly safety magazine, Countermeasure. "There we were, driving to the site where two soldiers died because they weren't wearing their seat belts, and someone told me I didn't need mine."

Other findings of the Center for Army Lessons Learned report include:

    * A driver vision enhancement tool is too small and obscured by the steering wheel.
    * New soldiers are being assigned to drive the Stryker in the theater with all training occurring during on-the-job missions.
    * Weapons can't shoot accurately when the vehicle is moving, and training doesn't include shooting while on the move.
    * In one model, known as the Stryker Reconnaissance Vehicle, the vehicle commander doesn't have a weapon station and must stand on a step that is so high it leaves him vulnerable to attack.

Even the Stryker's horn has proven inadequate in traffic situations. The Army report suggested soldiers in Iraq replace it with a louder one purchased locally, and to help clear traffic, it recommended "throwing rocks at cars that don't get out of the way and use of local hand signals to show `slow down.'"

Curry said the comments show that these kinds of internal Army reports are "not sanitized."

"It pretty much captures anything and everything you can think about," he said.

"I can assure you everything is being addressed and has been addressed."
 
There were flaws in the German made armor for Stryker that had to be fixed. Like Stratfor pointed out there are teething
problems with any new major system. When the M16 first came into the force there were lots of problems, that were eventually fixed.
The troops that are assigned to the Stryker brigades like the vehicle.

http://www.strykernews.com/
 
Good post Tom.

I guess one of the biggest contentions is not wether the "stryker" chassis will work or not, but the fact that in all cases except ours, it is being used in conjunction with other units which can support it. Even the Aussies have other capabilities in support (heavy armour, heavy lift, fast air, tac air, etc).

We are looking at a singular.

So it forces us into limited options.
 
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-766691.php

This article discusses how the troops like the Stryker. The second article is subscriber only and discusses improvements to the Stryker.

April 11, 2005

Stryker upgrades aimed at mobility, lethality
Report cites concerns from 1st combat tour

By Matthew Cox
Times staff writer


After serving more than a year in Iraq, the Army's Stryker vehicle is in need of upgrades, according to a report from the Center for Army Lessons Learned.

Several key systems on the eight-wheeled armored vehicle are being redesigned to give future Strykers better mobility, increased protection and greater killing power, officials said.

The changes stem from soldier complaints outlined in â Å“Initial Impressions Report-Operations in Mosul, Iraq,â ? which focused on the performance of the Army's first Stryker brigade during its maiden combat tour in Iraq.

The confidential report recommends a number of solutions to problems ranging from armor shortcomings to tire inflation problems.

By 2007, according to the report, Stryker brigades will be able to shoot on the move with greater accuracy day and night. They'll also have armored shields protecting vulnerable hatches on several variants and an improved tire inflation system that can better handle the vehicle's weight in combat.

The Center for Army Lessons Learned routinely conducts systematic reports to assess how units and systems can be improved to better meet soldiers' needs.

Army officials on the Stryker program, however, point out that the improvements were in the works long before the report was completed in December, a couple months after 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division (SBCT), had come home from its yearlong tour to Fort Lewis, Wash.

â Å“There wasn't a single surprise in there; in every case, they are being worked,â ? said Steven Campbell, Stryker systems coordinator for the assistant Army secretary for acquisitions, logistics and technology.

Campbell and other officials said the problems outlined in the report have come up during the constant dialogue they keep with Stryker brigade leaders throughout each deployment. â Å“Brigade commanders aren't shy â ” if he's got a problem, he's going to let the world know about it,â ? Campbell said.

Stryker brigades began in late 1999, when then-Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki set out to create highly mobile combat brigades equipped with armor and firepower. The brigades serve as the model for the Army's Transformation effort to create a lighter, more agile Future Force.

Within months of Shinseki's announcement, the first Stryker brigade, 3-2, was put through a stringent training and evaluation schedule, filled with back-to-back live-fire and force-on-force operations. After testing numerous vehicles, the Army selected a version of the 8-by-8 wheeled Light Armored Vehicle-3 in November 2000 to become the new Stryker combat vehicle.

Stryker carries a full nine-man squad and a two-man crew, comes equipped with armor designed to protect against 14.5mm projectiles and can deploy on C-130 transport aircraft.

Since then, the Army has fielded and deployed two of the seven Stryker brigades it plans to field by summer of 2008. With each brigade taking with it more than 300 vehicles, those seven brigades cost the Army an estimated $7.6 billion.

The Army's second Stryker brigade, 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division (SBCT), completed its certification in May and relieved 3-2 in Iraq last fall.

No one in 3-2 has said the Stryker couldn't be improved, but soldiers in every rank, from colonel down to private, have praised the vehicle during numerous interviews with Army Times in Iraq, describing it as the only vehicle they would want to take into combat.

Slat armor criticized

One of the major criticisms in the report deals with Slat armor, the cagelike system intended as an interim solution to protect against rocket-propelled grenade threats until the Army perfects the special add-on armor package designed for Stryker and slated for fielding to the fourth Stryker brigade.

In addition to being too heavy and interfering with certain Stryker features, the report said the Slat armor performance â Å“is less than expected against certain types of rocket-propelled grenades.â ? Slat armor cannot defeat the penetrator on the warhead of an anti-tank RPG in most cases, according to the report.

Soldiers operating out of the four hatches atop the Stryker are also vulnerable to anti-personnel RPGs, the report states.

Stryker program officials say Slat armor, overall, has been highly effective against threats in Iraq.

Out of the 345 documented hostile acts against Stryker vehicles and their crews in Iraq to date, there have been 17 deaths, said Lt. Col. Perry Caskey, a Stryker systems officer in the Army G-8.

Two of those deaths were caused from shrapnel hitting the soldiers out of the hatches and one from a 190-pound improvised explosive device exploding underneath a Stryker. The details surrounding the other 14 combat-related deaths were not available, Caskey said.

Of the 345 attacks, 168 of them were from IEDs and 58 were from RPGs, Caskey said.

More than 90 other attacks included everything from mortars to grenades, he said.

These attacks have resulted in 28 â Å“vehicle losses,â ? said Caskey, who explained that a loss is any vehicle that cannot be repaired in theater within 30 days. Nineteen of the 28 are repairable, Caskey said. Four are still being evaluated, and five have been labeled total losses.

â Å“If you look at the report, it sounds like Slat armor is a dog, but you talk to the soldiers, and they love it,â ? Campbell said.

Despite the report's criticisms, it recommends to continue fielding Slat armor on all Stryker variants. But Stryker officials also say improvements are in the works that will supplement Slat armor's effectiveness and help make the Stryker more mobile under the weight of the additional armor.

They are developing a ballistic shield to protect soldiers who must stand up, partially exposed in the Stryker's top hatches, Campbell said, adding that the shield is being considered for several variants.

The shield is designed to replace the practice of placing sandbags and other makeshift protection around the hatches.

â Å“We are trying to take advantage of better technology to do more than just sandbags,â ? said Campbell, adding that the hatch shields should first appear on the fourth Stryker brigade slated to be certified in December 2006.

Maintaining the correct tire pressure under the increased weight of the Slat armor has been another challenge for soldiers in Iraq, according to the report.

The Slat armor adds about 5,000 pounds to the Stryker, requiring the tire pressure to be at 95 pounds per square inch for most short missions. The Central Tire Inflation System was designed to keep tire pressure at a maximum of 87 psi, so soldiers have to increase the pressure to 95 psi with an air hose.

Soldiers also have to check the tire pressure several times a day because it tends to vary between 75 psi and 110 psi, the report states.

Stryker program officials contend that they knew that tire pressure would have to be increased manually when they issued the Slat armor, but there was no time to develop an improved tire inflation system before 3-2 deployed to Iraq, Campbell said.

An improved inflation system is slated to be fielded with the fourth Stryker brigade.

Another criticism in the report that Stryker program officials have given a high priority is upgrading the Remote Weapon Station to make it capable of shooting on the move and to improve its effectiveness at night.

The Stryker is equipped with either an M2 .50-caliber machine gun or MK19 automatic grenade launcher. The Remote Weapon Station is designed to let the gunner sight in on a target and fire from inside the Stryker.

The system was not originally designed with a stabilized, shoot-on-the-move capability because there was no requirement at the time, Campbell said. Combat operations in Iraq have prompted the Army to replace that with a stabilized version, so Stryker crews will be able to engage targets accurately while moving up to 25 mph, he said.

Program officials also are redesigning the Remote Weapon Station's targeting system to make it more effective at night. That will include an infrared system to help the gunner work with squads using infrared pointers and floodlights to identify targets for the RWS. In addition, the improved system would be able to zoom in on targets more effectively.

Campbell said that the goal is to have the changes to the weapon station in place when the fifth Stryker brigade is certified in May 2007.

Air conditioning recommended

The report included several other recommendations for improvements, such as adding air-conditioning to keep the computers loaded with Force XXI Battle Command, Brigade and Below from overheating in temperatures that can reach 130 degrees.

Program officials said they are considering anything that will make Stryker more effective in combat, but some recommendations won't receive as much priority as others, Campbell said.

Certain Stryker variants, such as the medical evacuation vehicle, need air conditioning, but it may be some time before other Stryker variants receive it.

â Å“If it is 130 degrees outside, it doesn't matter which vehicle you have. Things are going to operate a little slow,â ? Campbell said. â Å“The issue is priority. What is more important? ... It's on the table but not a top priority.â ?

Campbell went on to say that the M1 Abrams tank is 30 years old, and the Army is still improving on the design.

â Å“There is never going to be a perfect organization or system out there,â ? he said.

â Å“The goal is to continue to improve over time,â ? Campbell said.
 
I think the final answer to the "LAV III as the sole armoured vehicle" is no.

The LAV is exceptional at some jobs, OK in others and a load of crap in still others. I can see making a case for the LAV III being the bulk of Canada's armoured fleet, especially if we go towards the Cavalry type of organization argued elsewhere, but even then there will be a need for light armour, both to act as recce vehicles and fire platforms for the light forces, and there should be at least one heavy formation in the CF to operate under conditions that the LAV force (however organized) cannot.

The other part of the question is implicit: we should dump all the non LAV III platforms in order to streamline the logistics. It makes no sense at all to have hodge-podged fleet of AVGP, LAV II (multiple and incompatable variations) and LAV III (also with multiple and incompatable variations). This is actually worse than running a mixed wheeled/tracked fleet, since the chances of error increase dramatically. Given the timelines and other factors involved in doing this, the best possible solution is to soldier on for the present, but work very hard at implimenting a common chassis in the next five years. This can replace the fleet from the bottom up, first with all the AVGP varients, then the LAV IIs (Coyote/Wolf) then finally the LAV IIIs. The CV-90 SEP is a good place to start looking.
 
From a semi-practical standpoint, here's my $.02...  Why would we not consider taking ALL the heavy (read TRACKED) assets, and make 1 CMBG a "heavy brigade" (relatively speaking).  In the west, we have the room to train on the heavies properly, and the expertise is still in place to train the troops.  If we don't use the knowledge, it will eventually be purged from the hive memory, and lost forever.  I still think there is a role for a heavy formation in this super-dooper high tech age...

CHIMO,  Kat
 
Kat Stevens said:
Why would we not consider taking ALL the heavy (read TRACKED) assets, and make 1 CMBG a "heavy brigade" (relatively speaking).  
For a few years this was the plan.  That changed last summer.
 
Kat Stevens said:
Why would we not consider taking ALL the heavy (read TRACKED) assets, and make 1 CMBG a "heavy brigade" (relatively speaking).  

I think one of the reasons we have not gone this direction (which makes sense to me), is the fact that we cannot even sustain over-seas operations with what we have, let alone making a separate "heavy" force. If all our units were even close to being up to strength, I think it could work. But at the moment? Hmmm...

 
Ferrying troops around the battlefield?   The doctrine regarding Stryker makes it clear that it is a potent but supporting antitank platform, in operation not that much different from the couger.   To suggest that it would be taxiing about a battlefield without escort....

This is akin to throwing an M901 ITV into the fray as a first line offensive veh.

I have no problems with the MGS as part of a 'system of systems', as long as the rest of the system is there, of course....
 
Worn Out Grunt,

The Stryker term is somewhat confusing at it can mean sligthly different things depending if it is used in US or Canadian context.  In the US Army Stryker denotes a whole family of vehicles that are based on the LAV III chassis.  The most common so far (and the main one fielded in Iraq) is the infantry carrier that has a remote weapon station (think of it as a super bison or a LAV III without the 25mm turret).  The Mobile Gun System variant has the 105mm in a low profile turret (LPT).  This is the "Stryker" that Canada is pursuing.

Thus, having US Army "Strykers" taxiing troops around Iraq makes sense, as they are refering to the infantry carrying variant.  We do the same thing in Afghanistan with the LAV III and Bison.  The MGS has not been fielded yet.

As for the two articles I have no doubt that flaws with the basic vehicle have been found by the troops in combat.  Time will tell, of course, but I do think that the basic infantry carrier is a sound idea and suitable for these types of operations (better than riding in a HUMMVW and faster than tracks on security operations).  The Stryker debate got real political real fast in the US.  As for the tank article no big suprises.  Stand-up fighting will still need tanks, and this includes operations in urban areas.

Cheers,

2B
 
2B - thanks for sorting me out.  I try and do my homework, but I guess I've been 'infected' by the Leopard operators' generally low opinion of non tanks in the vanguard.

If the US fully adopts the Stryker family (and keeps heavy armour), will they also keep the Bradley and the Recce variant?

 
The Stryker is an interim platform due to be replaced by FCS [if it gets fielded]. It provides a medium weight force for the army. So yes Stryker will not replace Bradley/Abram's. I see the Stryker used on peacekeeping/low intensity ops. Bradley's are being upgraded to A3 config. Also the Army has a hyper velocity TOW in testing.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bradley/

http://www.mechaps.com/cgi-bin/pictureArchive.cgi?&A=right_page&id=119

 
The US has the budget and large military where it can have the luxury of having Styker and create Medium Bdes to fit in with its Light and Heavy Bdes.   Canada has neither the money, nor the manpower to have that luxury.   The decisions have to be made of what we want to sacrifice in our "Peace Dividend" 'this week'.   I look sadly upon this situation we find ourselves.   I don't particularly like the idea of loosing all those skill sets and becoming a 'niche army', incapable of defending ourselves.
 
George Wallace said:
The US has the budget and large military where it can have the luxury of having Styker and create Medium Bdes to fit in with its Light and Heavy Bdes.   Canada has neither the money, nor the manpower to have that luxury.   The decisions have to be made of what we want to sacrifice in our "Peace Dividend" 'this week'.   I look sadly upon this situation we find ourselves.   I don't particularly like the idea of loosing all those skill sets and becoming a 'niche army', incapable of defending ourselves.
I agree.  If we don't have the heavy arms needed for a high intensity war then we will have to settle for adding mech inf to our allies. 

This is not a completely bad thing, providing we are willing to give this up.  On the flip side, we need to react to our complementary allies when they ask for mech inf to help them out....

This makes pure economic sense.
 
Despite its flaws, troops prefer Stryker
Soldiers in Iraq say its safety, agility outweigh its shortcomings

By Sandra Jontz
Stars and Stripes/Mideast edition

FORWARD OPERATING BASE MAREZ, Iraq - In spite of its flaws, there is no other vehicle Stryker Brigade Combat Team soldiers say they would rather be in.

Some soldiers say the Stryker's safety factor outweighs the litany of shortcomings outlined last year in an internal study by the Center for Army Lessons Learned at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

"It's a lot safer than a Humvee and we have more mobility than a tank that is so cumbersome," said 1st Lt. Drew Godwin of Delta/52 Infantry Company.

"Being a wheeled vehicle makes it more maneuverable. I wouldn't want to be in anything else."

The CALL study reported problems that included a tendency for rollovers caused by the weight of add-on armor, a lack of protection against rocket-propelled grenades, computers overheating, and wheels that need constant attention.

Some of the findings are over dramatized, soldiers say. But in instances where the vehicles fall short, soldiers are forced to adapt.

Mechanics of 1st Battalion, 24th Infantry Regiment, or "Deuce-Four," for example, are wrapping the top of the Stryker with 3/8-inch steel plating to provide additional protection to the crews who stand in the open hatches.

Soldiers had used stacked sandbags, usually three bags high and sometimes two rows deep, as a buffer. But the added weight at times caused the wheel hubs to break, said Staff Sgt. Jason Stauff, the shop foreman and senior mechanic.

Since they've replaced the heavier sandbags with steel, the number of broken hubs has decreased to nearly nonexistent, said Sgt. 1st Class Brent Stafford, motor sergeant for the Combat Repair Team.

The added weight has, however, forced the crews to disengage the computerized automatic tire inflation system, which now is checked and adjusted manually.

The Deuce-Four soldiers have seen their share of attacks by anti-personnel and anti-tank grenades since arriving in Mosul last October. Each time, the Stryker did its job of protecting the troops.

"They've hit the armor, bent the plates, but we've not had a single loss because of RPGs," Stauff, 32, said. "These things are amazing."

Usually, the crew can have a damaged Stryker back in service within 48 hours, Stafford said.

"We've been hit with a few [roadside bombs] in this thing and it's very reliable," Spc. Krist Zeynalyan, 24, said. "There are pros and cons to everything, but the pros far outweigh the cons."

The Army introduced the General Dynamics-made Strykers in 2002 and plans to have six Stryker Brigade Combat Teams, or SBCTs, in place by 2008. Three already exist: the 3/2 Infantry Division, the 25th Infantry Division's 1st Brigade and part of the 172nd Infantry Brigade in Alaska.

Soldiers in Iraq complain mostly about heat in the vehicle and the inability of the main weapon, either a grenade launcher or a heavy machine gun, to hit targets when moving. The Army hopes to correct the weapons problem beginning next summer..

Heat inside the vehicle is a factor, especially for the driver.

"It gets too hot in there," said Spc. Donald Durocher, 28, a driver with Delta/52. "But I'll take it over a Humvee any day. I feel safer in this than in a Humvee."

The Army report found heat caused computer systems to overheat and fail, but the problems have been rare for Deuce-Four, Stauff said.

Iraq's hottest months are approaching, with average highs in July and August for Mosul about 102 degrees. Already the soldiers are working in temperatures in the mid- to high-90s, Stafford said, "so we're pretty close already to the hottest part and they're working fine."

The most sophisticated computer systems are located in commanders' vehicles, which have climate control systems to mitigate the problem.

This summer, air conditioning units will be added to the Medical Evacuation Vehicles to provide comfort while transporting casualties. The upgrade will cost about $90,000 per vehicle.

The MEV was highly praised by medics, who prefer operating in the Stryker versus the Front Line Ambulance, a box mounted on the back of a Humvee.
 
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