Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)

[armyvern]

Well I think we are getting different in formation Vern, I think we will be lucky to see any Snr Tech left, I talked with my Corps SM last week and the CA wanted to just simply cut 1/3 of our CWO....we are pushing back on that of course, but it's not as pretty as the slides make it look, the "SME CWO" stream in the SEM structure is not defined, and looks more likely to just be KP CWO positions only.  Time will tell.

Jon

Master Diver, Master Driver, CAF Senior Rigger etc are staying. 

Your Cdn Army SME level Infanteer, Artilleryman etc are staying, Log Br CWO, etc etc

Some Snr Techs may be disappearing - those that are called "Snr Techs" at bases looking after moving their trades around within the base (NOT Career Managers)  ... some bases are using CWOs to do this; one does not have to be a CWO to do this.

And, trust me, it is not going to be just KPs and SAs around.  Just saying.  It isn't just the Cdn Army that going to lose CWO either.  It's a SEM initiative. SEM is CAF-Wide project.  But, when one moves into a non-SME KP or SA, the trade and branch affiliations come down.  They wear the Coat of Arms cap badge, no shoulder titles, Crossed Swords as their collar dogs, Army buttons. 

For KPs, no change to the actual CWO rank badge itself.  SAs see either the tri-service appointment below their rank badge (Base CWOs, Formation CWOs, Div CWOs etc) or a laurel beneath (Command CWOs - there's only 6 of them), and the CFCWO wears the ring of Maple Leafs around his.  This latter paragraphed group of KPs and SAs are no longer trade or branch affiliated - they become MOSID 00351 upon their Change of Appointments (ergo, no longer amongst the Army, RCN or RCAF in numbers, but still CWOs)and belong to the CAF and are managed through DSA.

Oh ... and those CWO posns that are cut are not disappearing per se - they will become MWO posns for the vast lot of them.  You realize that we have >450 CPO1/CWOs in this outfit?  More than 450!!

 

[Old EO Tech]

Master Diver, Master Driver, CAF Senior Rigger etc are staying. 

Your Cdn Army SME level Infanteer, Artilleryman etc are staying, Log Br CWO, etc etc

Some Snr Techs may be disappearing - those that are called "Snr Techs" at bases looking after moving their trades around within the base (NOT Career Managers)  ... some bases are using CWOs to do this; one does not have to be a CWO to do this.

And, trust me, it is not going to be just KPs and SAs around.  Just saying.  It isn't just the Cdn Army that going to lose CWO either.  It's a SEM initiative. SEM is CAF-Wide project.  But, when one moves into a non-SME KP or SA, the trade and branch affiliations come down.  They wear the Coat of Arms cap badge, no shoulder titles, Crossed Swords as their collar dogs, Army buttons. 

For KPs, no change to the actual CWO rank badge itself.  SAs see either the tri-service appointment below their rank badge (Base CWOs, Formation CWOs, Div CWOs etc) or a laurel beneath (Command CWOs - there's only 6 of them), and the CFCWO wears the ring of Maple Leafs around his.  This latter paragraphed group of KPs and SAs are no longer trade or branch affiliated - they become MOSID 00351 upon their Change of Appointments (ergo, no longer amongst the Army, RCN or RCAF in numbers, but still CWOs)and belong to the CAF and are managed through DSA.

Oh ... and those CWO posns that are cut are not disappearing per se - they will become MWO posns for the vast lot of them.  You realize that we have >450 CPO1/CWOs in this outfit?  More than 450!!

Yes I understand what KP/SA CWO wear :-/  450 may seem like a lot...but I'm betting its no were close to the number of GOFO/Col/LCol, and we seem to have no issues employing officers in staff positions, but its not ok to have CWO in non command roles.  And I'm not saying all those officer jobs are not valid, just that the same career path's should be given to the NCM Corps.  If a LCol CO needs the advice of a CWO, I think a Div/CA branch head could use that advice as well.

And I agree if we have CWO's "just moving people around" on a Base that is not a reason to have a CWO there.  But I would propose that those Snr Tech's should be managing strategic LEMS/SC/Fleet management, and if we are not doing that then we have not set ourselves up in the right roles.  Strategic resource management is part of that job, but that is much more than just helping the CM's move people around for sure.

But we can chat more offline at the mess

Jon

 

[Haggis]

In 2010 there were over 500 CWO/CPO1 positions and a few dozen more actual CWO/CPO1s.  The herd was culled then, notably in the A Res, before the CDS would approve any more P Res KP or SA.  Dropping to 450-ish is progress.

It's also notable that CWO/CPO1 who join the Senior Appointment List (SAL) also enter another MOSID and pay scale, which they stay in for one year post-appointment (as long as they don't release).  KP CWO/CPO1 do not.  They retain their original MOSID, even if they do re-badge.

 

[Infanteer]

And I'm not saying all those officer jobs are not valid, just that the same career path's should be given to the NCM Corps.

Why would we want two matching, parallel career paths?  As well, the goal is not to let every NCM be a CWO/CPO1.  Senior NCMs perform a specific function based on their unique career path.  If there is a valid role for a senior NCM, create the position, but don't just bolt one on to every officer above the rank of Major for the sake of job creation.

We probably need to broaden the training/opportunities for WO/MWO, add some additional IPCs to those ranks, and improve commissioning programs for them as well.  This way, the Forces can draw from a smaller pool into a reduced number of CWO/CPO1 positions.  For the record, I am also about cutting the number of LCol/Cdr positions down by half from about 1200 to 600-ish max, so don't think I'm picking on the NCMs.

 

[ModlrMike]

Why would we want two matching, parallel career paths?  As well, the goal is not to let every NCM be a CWO/CPO1.  Senior NCMs perform a specific function based on their unique career path.  If there is a valid role for a senior NCM, create the position, but don't just bolt one on to every officer above the rank of Major for the sake of job creation.

We probably need to broaden the training/opportunities for WO/MWO, add some additional IPCs to those ranks, and improve commissioning programs for them as well.  This way, the Forces can draw from a smaller pool into a reduced number of CWO/CPO1 positions.  For the record, I am also about cutting the number of LCol/Cdr positions down by half from about 1200 to 600-ish max, so don't think I'm picking on the NCMs.

You are correct, the goal is not to let every NCM be a CWO/CPO1... but the opportunity should be there. If we clog the system with folks who are going to spend 20 years in rank, that clearly has a negative impact on opportunity. That being said I realize that this phenomena is not restricted to CWO/CPO1, but arguably that rank has the greatest downstream effect.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Why would we want two matching, parallel career paths?  As well, the goal is not to let every NCM be a CWO/CPO1.  Senior NCMs perform a specific function based on their unique career path.  If there is a valid role for a senior NCM, create the position, but don't just bolt one on to every officer above the rank of Major for the sake of job creation.

We probably need to broaden the training/opportunities for WO/MWO, add some additional IPCs to those ranks, and improve commissioning programs for them as well.  This way, the Forces can draw from a smaller pool into a reduced number of CWO/CPO1 positions.  For the record, I am also about cutting the number of LCol/Cdr positions down by half from about 1200 to 600-ish max, so don't think I'm picking on the NCMs.

No we don't need to let every NCM be a CWO, but the pyramid narrows a lot more from MWO to CWO than it does for Maj to LCol.  And increasing the number of MWO has its own problems, in the RCEME Corps we are already dealing with having just as many MWO as WO, due to many staff positions needing the experience of an MWO(LCMM/CM etc), down grading CWO positions is going to make that even worse.

I'm all for doing a proper analysis on both what CWO do and LCol do, but I don't see much of a concern over having a lot of LCol sitting around, but having 450 CWO across the CAF seems to be a red button issue....and I personally am not convinced that it is.  I can't speak to the RCN or RCAF as I don't have enough exposure to how they employ CWO/CPO1, but in the CA, being a CWO at Div HQ or the Standards CWO at a Div TC is required not just for the expertise and experience they bring but also because they have to be able to deal on an equal footing with RSM's, and an MWO is not going to be able to do that.  It's no doubt the same reason that Div Branch heads are LCol, so they have no issues addressing concerns with the Div's CO's...

The CWO SEM project does have three streams identified, a Command stream(well understood), and SME stream and an SRCP stream(including hard assigned Maj and LCol positions).  I have not seen a deep dive into what these mean for numbers of CWO though.  The SEM project was supposed to be about CWO employment, but it seems the emphasize is being placed on just reducing numbers, and to me that is putting the cart ahead of the horse, we should complete the analysis and then decide of we have CWO doing jobs that don't need a CWO....but then maybe I'm just to far from the centre to be read in on what is happening...but if so that speaks to a lack of communication, something we are suppose to be good at as CWO....

Jon

 

[armyvern]

No we don't need to let every NCM be a CWO, but the pyramid narrows a lot more from MWO to CWO than it does for Maj to LCol.  And increasing the number of MWO has its own problems, in the RCEME Corps we are already dealing with having just as many MWO as WO, due to many staff positions needing the experience of an MWO(LCMM/CM etc), down grading CWO positions is going to make that even worse.

I'm all for doing a proper analysis on both what CWO do and LCol do, but I don't see much of a concern over having a lot of LCol sitting around, but having 450 CWO across the CAF seems to be a red button issue....and I personally am not convinced that it is.  I can't speak to the RCN or RCAF as I don't have enough exposure to how they employ CWO/CPO1, but in the CA, being a CWO at Div HQ or the Standards CWO at a Div TC is required not just for the expertise and experience they bring but also because they have to be able to deal on an equal footing with RSM's, and an MWO is not going to be able to do that.  It's no doubt the same reason that Div Branch heads are LCol, so they have no issues addressing concerns with the Div's CO's...

The CWO SEM project does have three streams identified, a Command stream(well understood), and SME stream and an SRCP stream(including hard assigned Maj and LCol positions).  I have not seen a deep dive into what these mean for numbers of CWO though.  The SEM project was supposed to be about CWO employment, but it seems the emphasize is being placed on just reducing numbers, and to me that is putting the cart ahead of the horse, we should complete the analysis and then decide of we have CWO doing jobs that don't need a CWO....but then maybe I'm just to far from the centre to be read in on what is happening...but if so that speaks to a lack of communication, something we are suppose to be good at as CWO....

Jon

The CWO posns you mention above would still be CWO posns [Div, School etc].  They are not being cut just for the sake of cutting, but by the same token as you speak of "needing experience to do MWO [LCMM]) jobs" ... what we don't require is CWOs doing MWO or Capt jobs ... that analysis has been done.  I won't put any specific numbers up here because the project is not yet complete.

I still don't know where you're getting the "need to do analysis first" - there was/is analysis.

There's not actually a "separate stream" for SRCP - CWO are eligible for CFR into a Capt posn, but not all of them will be offered such. Also may be offered SCRP to a Capt posn if they possess the very specific skillsets and expertize require for that specific posn. Then, when/if a CWO moves up the CWO scale into the 00351 MOSID (already happening) Senior Appointment, they stay eligible to CFR or be offered SCRP into a Major posn if they meet the specific skillsets and expertize for that particular posn.  The CFCWO, Tier 0, is eligible for a LCol posn.  These are part of the "off-ramps" for CWOs.  Another "off-ramp" for them all is "release" etc.

In short, your specific trade and branch posns where actual CWOs are required to perform the job are still going to exist.  Once/if those CWOs then move up into the KP realm and onto the SA realm they will change MOSIDs as their work is no longer trade/branch related - they are career managed by DSA on behalf of the institution vice any trade, branch or environment.  Your trade/branch can then promote/fill the vacated trade/branch posn as the lads and lasses in the KPs and SAs do not count towards your trade & branch specific numbers as they are no longer part of your trades and branches.

 

[Chanada]

Well put ArmyVern!  This is an old problem that has been the subject of multiple great circular discussions as far back as when LGen Dallaire became ADM(HR) identified problems with the denigration of the CWO rank and tried (without success) to bring it back into line with a number of things (including the Lateral Skills thing).  Some (long) time ago one of his predecessors wrote (DeChastelain) wrote in the Pers Newsletter the danger of the CWO community's propensity to somehow think that there is a rank above CWO "super-chiefs".  It is one of the best articles on the subject of CWO credibility I have ever seen but unfortunately doesn't show up in Google Searches these days.  We sometimes forget that the most important job for a CWO in the Army is to be an RSM (or its equivalent at a school) - where the soldiers are.  CWO pers development aims towards that...after that is done it becomes training for employment. The other thing that people forget about SCP, UTPNCM, CFR is that these are officer production streams designed to meet CAF requirements by offr MOS.  They are not solutions for PML problems in NCM MOSs that have CWO problems created by inflation and PML manipulation over the past 10-15 years.    Now I would think in terms of both LCol and CWO positions an effort is underway to reduce PMLs while still ensuring a critical mass of quality individuals available for selection to serve in key positions (small kp) as COs and RSMs.  Pro Patria

 

[The Bread Guy]

Congrats to all listed ...

CANFORGEN 020/19 CMP 010/19 111413Z FEB 19

UNCLASSIFIED

    IT IS MY PRIVILEGE TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING GENERAL OFFICER AND FLAG OFFICER PROMOTIONS, APPOINTMENTS AND RETIREMENTS THAT HAVE RECENTLY OCCURRED AND THOSE THAT WILL OCCUR IN 2019. I WISH TO OFFER MY DEEPEST APPRECIATION FOR THE SERVICE AND SACRIFICES OF OUR RETIRING OFFICERS AND THEIR FAMILIES, AND I OFFER MY CONGRATULATIONS AND SINCEREST BEST WISHES TO THOSE TAKING ON NEW APPOINTMENTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES
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        BRIGADIER-GENERAL ACTING WHILE SO EMPLOYED P.C. SABOURIN WILL BE PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE TO THE RANK OF BRIGADIER-GENERAL AND WILL CONTINUE TO SERVE IN HIS CURRENT APPOINTMENT, DIRECTOR GENERAL INFORMATION MANAGEMENT OPERATIONS, AT NDHQ, IN OTTAWA ON
        COLONEL J.G.M. BILODEAU WILL BE PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF BRIGADIER-GENERAL AND APPOINTED TO A NEW POSITION AS DIRECTOR GENERAL CLINICAL SERVICES / DEPUTY COMMANDER CANADIAN FORCES HEALTH SERVICES GROUP, IN OTTAWA ON
    AFTER DISTINGUISHED SERVICE TO CANADA AND THE CAF, THE FOLLOWING GENERAL OFFICERS AND FLAG OFFICERS RETIRED IN THE LATTER STAGE OF 2018 OR WILL RETIRE IN 2019:
        LIEUTENANT-GENERAL J.C.G. JUNEAU
        LIEUTENANT-GENERAL C.A. LAMARRE
        VICE-ADMIRAL M.F.R. LLOYD
        MAJOR-GENERAL P. ORMSBY
        MAJOR-GENERAL C.J. TURENNE
        BRIGADIER-GENERAL M.R. BARKER
        COMMODORE S.N. CANTELON
        BRIGADIER-GENERAL R. DELANEY
        BRIGADIER-GENERAL S.M. MORITSUGU
        BRIGADIER-GENERAL D.A. QUINN
        BRIGADIER-GENERAL L.E. THOMAS
        COMMODORE M.B. WATSON
    SENIOR APPOINTMENTS THAT REQUIRE DIPLOMATIC CONCURRENCE OR FURTHER APPROVAL WILL BE COORDINATED AS NECESSARY
    INDIVIDUAL SCREENING AND POSTING MESSAGES WILL BE DISPATCHED IN THE NEAR FUTURE. PRESS RELEASES ARE TO BE COORDINATED WITH ADM (PA) / DPAO. ALL OFFICERS ARE TO FORWARD TO DSA COORD AN UPDATED BIOGRAPHY IN FRENCH AND ENGLISH AND AN UPDATED PHOTOGRAPH, AS APPLICABLE
    SIGNED BY GENERAL J.H. VANCE, CDS

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That brings us to what, over 100 generals and flag officers now (I've lost count)?

For roughly 88,000 pers complete.

 

[brihard]

That brings us to what, over 100 generals and flag officers now (I've lost count)?

For roughly 88,000 pers complete.

116 total, and per the newest promotions list it looks like four of them are 'new', either from newly created positions, or positions that are up-ranked. There are I think 44 positions accounted for in the current CANFORGEN, of which 8 are overseas in either international HQs/Liaisons, serving as senior deputies in US formations, or deployed on international operations... So I'm ballparking maybe 20 or so of our GOFO positions are serving in capacities along those lines?

But yeah, that leaves close to 100 GOFOs as part of the actual CAF force structure... That's a lot...

 

[McG]

That brings us to what, over 100 generals and flag officers now (I've lost count)?

For roughly 88,000 pers complete.

According to one article that I read, there are now 116 general and flag officers.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

According to one article that I read, there are now 116 general and flag officers.

Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.

Although, we're still very top heavy putting us at approx. 1 GOFO for every 763 members.

UK cut a significant number of Generals and are at a 1:2400 ratio. USA is 1:2300.

Australia is apparently very top heavy as well, but I can't find any figures.

That said, 12 GOFOs retired and some are operational positions that will be temporary in nature.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.

First pay raises in decades.

Increase in release benefits and improved pension.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.

 

[McG]

Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.

To which years are you comparing, and what was the size of the force in those years?

That said, 12 GOFOs retired ...

Their positions persist.  The number of GOFO is a symptom of the number of authorized positions.  Retirements do not change the number of positions.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.

I don't know the metric by which to assess this statement.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.

Is it? The fighter replacement project does not seem to have much speed.  Light and heavy truck replacements are still years into the future for the Army. How do you come to your conclusion?

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.

We can increase SIP all we want and it will make no difference if the schools are not resourced to increase their production (and they are not).  We will just create ever larger holding organizations for bored, disillusioned recruits waiting to be trained.

First pay raises in decades.

This is not true.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.

Are you clairvoyant or optimistic?

 

[PuckChaser]

Decade old article, but in 2010 the Australian Defense Force had 172 GOFOs for roughly 55,000 pers.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

To which years are you comparing, and what was the size of the force in those years?

Previous 5 years, CAF had well over 120 GOFOs per year.

Their positions persist.  The number of GOFO is a symptom of the number of authorized positions.  Retirements do not change the number of positions.

At the very bottom of the article, there is a laundry list of retirements, but no indication of appointments to replace them. Therefore one could infer it's a reduction in number of positions.

I don't know the metric by which to assess this statement.

Meaning the cost of these GOFOs are a drop in the bucket compare to the rest of the goings-on in the DND.

Is it? The fighter replacement project does not seem to have much speed.  Light and heavy truck replacements are still years into the future for the Army. How do you come to your conclusion?

The ML and MS fleet have been replaced. The TAPV has entered service. While there is still work being done to replace the LSVW and LUVW, there has been a fleet of LOSV added and CANSOF received a fleet of brand new LUTVs. We saw the creation of a new Maritime Tactical Security Group. Fighter Project is being mishandled sure, but we have new helmets, new fighting rigs, Supply Ships pushed up in priority, new ranger rifles, C6 GPMG upgrades, extensive upgrades to the Victoria Class fleet, Griffons undergoing major lifecycle upgrades. I could go on, but these were all things neglected by the previous government.

We can increase SIP all we want and it will make no difference if the schools are not resourced to increase their production (and they are not).  We will just create ever larger holding organizations for bored, disillusioned recruits waiting to be trained.

Hopefully the budget will help with that. The increase in the SIP will help fill manpower shortages as well. I forgot to mention that the size of the Reserve Force has doubled and more and more units are being operationalized.

This is not true.

Really? Because they last "raises" we got prior to 2015 were simply cost of living adjustments. Last real pay raise was 2009, nearly a decade ago.

Are you clairvoyant or optimistic?

It was in the government's long term funding plan. Budget is due to increase $580m CAD for the 2019/2020 fiscal year. It's all available on public domain

 

[Halifax Tar]

Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.

Although, we're still very top heavy putting us at approx. 1 GOFO for every 763 members.

UK cut a significant number of Generals and are at a 1:2400 ratio. USA is 1:2300.

Australia is apparently very top heavy as well, but I can't find any figures.

That said, 12 GOFOs retired and some are operational positions that will be temporary in nature.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.

First pay raises in decades.

Increase in release benefits and improved pension.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.

I will be less diplomatic than MCG... What are you smoking ?  And can I have some ?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I will be less diplomatic than MCG... What are you smoking ?  And can I have some ?

See my responses above.

I know that military personnel are born, bred, trained to hate anything Liberal, but you guys are being asinine to ignore the progress that has been made.

 

[Infanteer]

I believe the number is 132 GOFOs, when reserve positions are taken into account.

 

[Halifax Tar]

See my responses above.

I know that military personnel are born, bred, trained to hate anything Liberal, but you guys are being asinine to ignore the progress that has been made.

Ok now you lost me... again, pass to the left home boy