Senator and Polaris Institute challenge PMC's

[Slim]

I'd like to say that I'm dissagreeably surprised by what a former General of the Cf has just come out and siad...But I'm not.

Politics, it seems, can corrupt even the best of us. For those who wish an example of this I refer you to the Conservative Defense critic Mr. (former Gen) O'Conner, who has spouted all kinds of foolish ideas in the name of discrediting the Libs.

I would like to know exactly who's (if anyone's) agenda is being pursued by this  incredibly stupid and short-sighted statement. All Dallaire has done is tell former servicemen and women that the one place for them to emply the skills that they've spent a life time learning is no longer open to them.

A Canadian citizen who breaks the law in a foreign country is oe thing, but tarring allPMC's with the same bush is stupid...And I'd be willing to guess that he knows it.

Poilitics, it seems, as struck at the members of the CF yet again.

Slim

 

[starlight_cdn]

"They protect government officials and aid agency workers, train police and soldiers, and guard important installations such as oil refineries and power plants."

Sounds like a horrible job. Let's ban it
 

"It's difficult to ban Canadians from doing anything," said Rudd, president of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies. "We have an open economy and we have freedom of movement."

Thankfully, our rampant liberalism is good for something.

Dallaire said. "If I had any influence"

With the upcoming election, this will be forgotten as the politicions fight over very important things like who is more corrupt. Politicions have the attention span of the last public opinion poll. PMCs are not a concern of regular Canadians.

Besides, Dallaire is a "has been", made a Senator because he will tow the line. I'm not surprised by his response it is typical of his generation of snr officer. Thinking loyalty means saying "yes" all the time.

 

[Devon Best]

The problem with the PMC is basically that everyone sees them as one thing, Mercenaries, and to put it bluntly, yeah you could call them that.  But that's the unfortunate thing, is that's how Dallaire is seeing things, and that is probably how others view it. It's just like the other issue of the $12 billion for the budget, it's because people are uneducated about the issue that it is frowned upon.

I'm not in the CF yet, but I plan to be joining the Reserves soon, and after University, possibly full service, and Private Sector has always been an issue that is on my mind. I'm glad I saw this post, opened my eyes a little, I was a little niave at first, didn't know these companies were so open.

 

[Slim]

The problem with the PMC is basically that everyone sees them as one thing, Mercenaries, and to put it bluntly, yeah you could call them that.

You sound like you don't know very much about the private security industry. They aren't mercenaries at all, any more than a mall security guard is. PMC's are providing CP officers and static guard positions to others who need the protection from insurgents and Taliban.

There are people on thi site who are gainfully employed by PMC's on this site who probably would not be too happy with your uninformed opinions.


 

I'm not in the CF yet, but I plan to be joining the Reserves soon, and after University, possibly full service, and Private Sector has always been an issue that is on my mind. I'm glad I saw this post, opened my eyes a little, I was a little niave at first, didn't know these companies were so open.

Then be quiet and watch and learn.

 

[Long in the tooth]

I for one would be more reassured if there was a ban placed on Canadian Terrorists, but Omar Khadr seems to have gained a lot of sympathy.  I guess this class of law breakers is exempt.

 

[KevinB]

The problem with the PMC is basically that everyone sees them as one thing, Mercenaries, and to put it bluntly, yeah you could call them that.

:-*

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.
Art 47 Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

2. A mercenary is any person who:

(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;

(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

Security Contractors fail both items A and B - as they are not conducting offensive operations, but simply securing either a person or place from harm.
In both Afghanistan and Iraq the contractors legislated by both the US Department of State and the Host Nation Government.





 

I'm not in the CF yet, but I plan to be joining the Reserves soon, and after University, possibly full service, and Private Sector has always been an issue that is on my mind. I'm glad I saw this post, opened my eyes a little, I was a little niave at first, didn't know these companies were so open.

Kid there is lane everyone has, and your way out of it.  Nice avatar BTW  :

Oh and welcome

 

[GO!!!]

Best,

Don't worry, about these guys, join the reserves, and as soon as you're finished SQ the "mercs" will be banging on your door offering $1000/day contracts to protect high value targets.

They get their lists of candidates from contacts in the DND - and they know everything!!

The "private sector" is something you don't really need any special training for anyway, you just buy some Oakleys and show up. Now, you were saying something about "uneducated people"??

Sweet avatar by the way....did you put it up before or after SOAC?

 

[Devon Best]

Heh, thanks for the warm welcome... 

The "private sector" is something you don't really need any special training for anyway, you just buy some Oakleys and show up. Now, you were saying something about "uneducated people"??

I never said I'd join Private Sector, but I have a pair of foakley's, think they'd let me in then? 

Look, I'm not trying to get flamed here, I was just offering my opinion, and I guess I made an idiot of myself. 

But the only way the public is going to have a change of opinion is if there is an actual campaign to try and educate people.  I haven't seen any being put out there, and I consider(ed) myself more informed than most regarding the military and politics, and obviously I'm wrong. Past that though, how is there going to be any change of the public's opinion if no one does anything about it.

And if there are member's of PMC's here, wouldn't it be in their best interest to try and avoid this whole issue being banned by the Senate?

 

[Slim]

Heh, thanks for the warm welcome...  

I never said I'd join Private Sector, but I have a pair of foakley's, think they'd let me in then?  

Look, I'm not trying to get flamed here, I was just offering my opinion, and I guess I made an idiot of myself.  

But the only way the public is going to have a change of opinion is if there is an actual campaign to try and educate people.   I haven't seen any being put out there, and I consider(ed) myself more informed than most regarding the military and politics, and obviously I'm wrong. Past that though, how is there going to be any change of the public's opinion if no one does anything about it.

And if there are member's of PMC's here, wouldn't it be in their best interest to try and avoid this whole issue being banned by the Senate?

Devon

I make my living as a CP officer inToronto Canada. I protect the CEO and upper management of a large company in the GTA. Does that make me a Mercenary?! After all the PMC's are doing roughly the same job I am, just in a different country. Some good friends of mine who work for PMC's and are on this site (and I can garuntee one of whom saw your post and is rather pissed about it) shake their heads at the stuff people say about what they do in Iraq and A'stan.

These people are highly trained professionals who earn every cent that they make by keeping other people alive in a really crappy place in the world. Every day they are willing to stand in between their charges (principles) and criminals who have no respect for life what so ever.

I have the utmost respect for them and freely admit that I do not have the quals to deploy and work in the enviorment that they do.


The last thing  they or the PMC's in general need is a bunch of mis enformed people all shooting their faces off over this issue. If you do not understand an issue then ask a question or two...don't just jump in and start to spout off...Especially here. What gets said on this site can follow you around during your CF career!

Lots of people come here and you never know who's watching (and reading)

Please read more, post less and stay in your lane.

Slim
StAFF

 

[Devon Best]

Well then, this is fun.

I'm certainly glad to know I've managed to piss people off already... 

Sorry to anyone I may of offended. I didn't mean to insult.  What I meant was that the public is misinformed (me being one of them) and that people can be confused as to what a mercenary is and what a PMC does. That's all I meant. I wasn't trying to make enemies.

Cheers...

 

[Jarnhamar]

If an officer gains experience and training from the military, in leadership,logistics,management, a degree, (undergrad,masters or doctrate) he is permitted to use his military credentials and experience in any way he sees fit. This is even used as a recruiting tactic!(RMC is now training business grads)

If an NCMin the cbt arms is trained with skills that enable him to land a high paying civilian job, he is vilified as a mercenary, and campaigned against by members of our "friends of the Liberals" senate.

Beautiful!

Why is it 99% of the posters who crap talk "mercenaries" (ohh scarry name evil) are young, inexperienced and/or RTFO?
Perhaps not so much in this thread but a search will show you exactly where all these debates go.
If your a civilian stick to JTF threads.

 

[Kal]

Well, at least Devon has a pretty good attitude.  He didn't start a flame war, took his licks and the gentle cues and didn't fight back about it.  That's a good attitude to have, keep it up and you'll receive more respect around here and in your future career, much more than most that that did the opposite of you.  Good on you, bro'.  Welcome to Army.ca

 

[KevinB]

Devon,

Please understand with 1 post you 1) Announced you thought that Security Contractors could be construced as Merc's 2) Announced you felt informed about matters 3) Pointed out you where still in highschool and where planning on joining the reserves 4) Had a JTF-2 avatar.

If you put those four items as a field of reference to people who have been in the CF for a long time, and are now employed in a secondary field that you are badmouthing from a position of ignorance, you should be able to see why some might be a bit miffed.

 

[stevenstaples]

Was away for a while -

Glad you caught the Nov 11 special on TVO - I enjoyed the program, despite having to go down to TO and back in the same day. Good to meet Gen MacKenzie and the others. Don't agree on everything, but have to respect people for their accomplishments.

I thought the mercs series was a terrific contribution to our understanding of a little-known industry that Canadians are involved in. FYI - Defense News recently reported that South Africa was trying to ban nationals from working for private security firms. The legacy of Executive Outcomes...

Interesting to see Graham going with the least controversial of Hiller's shopping list, the Hercs replacements. You might think Polaris had an operative in the PMO from this quote by an unnamed official: "we must serve the needs of the troops, not the defence contractors or lobbyists." Then Graham had less than generous words for all the retired generals-turned-lobbyists. Always thinking of the soldiers first, those generals are...

Steve

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think that Ruxted [sp?] guy is involved with Polaris as well.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm wondering how far Sen Romeo is willing to take this.  Every former sapper or a/t that's employed in demining ops for NGO's around the world should quit?  Never mind the thousands (no exaggeration) of lives saved by these people who put their spam on the line every day for people they'll never even meet.  Different skill set as a bullet catcher, but learned in the same place, no?

 

[Infanteer]

You might think Polaris had an operative in the PMO from this quote by an unnamed official: "we must serve the needs of the troops, not the defence contractors or lobbyists."

HEY, you can't steal that - that's Army.ca's line! 

 

[KevinB]

I thought the mercs series was a terrific contribution to our understanding of a little-known industry that Canadians are involved in. FYI - Defense News recently reported that South Africa was trying to ban nationals from working for private security firms. The legacy of Executive Outcomes...

Sir, this is where you have a poor understanding of EO, their role, the follow on companies of EO, and PSC's in general.   I made comments and attached the relevant chapter (47) of the Protocol Additions to the GC, in the other thread regarding Senator Dallaire commentary.   South Africa, and all of Africa has had enormous experience with the effects of employing mercenary armies, however South Africa is not Canada.   South Africa's legislature is based upon fear, fear of the use of true mercenary armies on both it and its neighbours.   This legislation they beleive will provide them with security, a false set of security, based on the faulty premise that former armed forces members are a threat to the nation and predisposed to join "outlaw" mercenary armies.   I know a few ex EO employees, some that even came back to the CF after a stint with EO.  

Secondly what about retired CF or Law Enforcement personnel that take up jobs out side of Canada but inside the North American hemisphere?   I know of a few jobs working in the carribean for the host nation governments to provide security to their magistrates, since their police are either to incompetant or corrupt (or both) to do that mission.   Now these protection jobs are protecting gov't public servants from criminals (mostly dealing with money laundering rulings).   I doubt anyone of sound mind, could form a rationale argument to legislate a stop to those activities.

If you take it further how is the Private Security Detail to a foreign national in Afghanistan or Iraq, or an NGO in a dangerous climate any different?

Quite simply it is not, the problem is a lot of people do not understand the role and mission of CPP operatives, and thus it is human nature to fear what they dont understand, no one likes to admit fear, so they revert back to something they can blame to make their cause just.



Edit for spelling/punctuation (and likely still needs more too)

 

[GO!!!]

.

 

[Infanteer]

Put the pecker contest away - he was agreeing with you and condemning the armchair crowd who has no clue about how the private world operates.