Saving Money in the PRes (From: The Defence Budget)

[Edward Campbell]

Reg Force in the rear with the gear and the PRes as cannon fodder? :Tin-Foil-Hat: ;D

That's one way of looking at, to be sure ... but: equally surely, the points Kirkhill raises are valid and, if that's so, then the solution is equally obvious: more support and service support regulars. Given that we are not getting any more, new PYs anytime soon that leaves two options:

    1. Fire a whole shitload of generals and colonels and replace them , one for one, with vehicle techs and admin clerks and supply people and so on ~ a good great choice, but unlikely; or

    2. Move some (several hundred) combat arms establishment "lines" to the reserves and fill the resulting regular vacancies with support troops, many of whom, along with some additional combat arms people,
        will be supporting the reserves.

 

[George Wallace]

Its funny you bring this up.  My working with the Army Reserve is little but we did take a number of army reserve sup techs with us on 1-10.  These troops were good soldiers with a solid foundation of soldiering skills.

Once it came time to drive a forklift, pack a pallet, pick stores or use the supply system they were very inexperienced to the point where they couldn't read a location system; and seemed put off by having to do supply work,  most thought they were some kind of infantry soldiers with a second job.

I have to wonder what is easier to teach, basic soldiering skills or competency in ones trade.  Perhaps when it comes to Army Reserve CSS folks we should be ensuring an understanding of their primary job and a competency in that field is established as the basic soldiering skills needed for a CSS troop can be brought up to speed with a few months pre-deployment training.

This is one of the major communication gaps between the Regular Force and the Reserves.  Regular Force members can not comprehend the fact that unlike them, the Reservist can not at the drop of a hat go on career courses.  They require a good amount of lead time to arrange Leave from their Civilian jobs to attend a Crse.  That is if there is even a Crse to begin with.  If there are limited numbers of positions on Reg Force Crses for Reservists, then there is a long line up of people nominated and no guarantees that they will be choosen to attend.  That complicates any planning for absences from their Civilian job; do they get the crse or not and when will they know for sure.  The shortages of spaces on a crse, or even the crse itself, compounds the amount of Trades Trg Reservists in some Trades will progress through.  Availability of resources, equipment, continuation trg, etc. after having a crse is also important.  Without that, knowledge fade occurs. 

So; yes it is easier to train them on their basic soldier skills at their unit on regular training nights and weekends.

 

[George Wallace]

We have already seen the 10/90 Bns in the past.  They failed.  Perhaps we didn't give them the time to actually become effective; but at the end of the day, they were done away with and returned to full Regular Force Bns.

I remember years ago, the idea being bounced around in the RCD lines, before the whole unit went to Coyotes and became Recce, of having a Troop of Reservists join the Regiment as Class B Callouts to fill a Recce Troop of jeeps/Iltis/G Wagen.  They would have been drawn from all of the LFCA Armour units.  Funding and vehicle shortages ended that idea before it ever took off in any serious planning.

 

[Kirkhill]

So you're saying, I guess, that the full time, professional, standing army should be weighted more towards combat support and combat service support specialists with greater, concomitant emphasis being given to reserves that can provide lots of adequately trained individual (and even a few small unit) augmentees to regular force combat arms units ... right?

ERC,

I don't know if that should be the structure, it is certainly the one that I favour, and - if the Total Force construct is to be a reality - is really the only way that I can see to make it work. 

I like the idea, common in Europe, of active units having a Repl pool of Augmentees (reservists generally now)  that they can call upon to squeeze triggers and drive vehicles and otherwise flesh out the ranks.  They use this means to add bodies to sections, sections to platoons and platoons to companies.  I don't think they do much about the platoon level these days.  (ie no fielding of reserve brigades).

The alternative, in my view,  is to go back to a very small, highly trained professional force and a completely separate, and unequal, militia for home service tasks.


MilEME09....

The point that you are making is that time is needed to maintain kit.  I agree entirely.  Are you willing to do that on an unpaid basis?  Or do you expect to be paid for the service?  If you expect to be paid for the service, out of class B or class C dollars, in what way are you different to a Reg Force PY?

I have no doubt that your skills are up to the task but clearly you feel your "management" is not up to the task.  Would you be better served with "management" that has more time to devote to:
using your time wisely;
ensuring that you have the necessary training;
ensuring that you have the necessary parts, tools and consummables to fix the problem before you;
and conducting the appropriate quality control before returning the "finished" product back to the ungrateful wretches who broke it in the first place?

And Recceguy.....not far off the mark.  Although I would prefer that the government's Afghanistans, Bosnias, Haitis and Rwandas be handled by whatever pool of Expeditionary Regulars they see fit to fund, with augmentation by volunteers from the Reserves.

 

[chrisf]

Watch the attitude. I was reg force, I understand life on both sides of the fence. Militia? It's the primary reserve. Militia is a term long gone.

As a reservist myself, the word militia was intentionally and carefully chosen in that case.

There's plenty of good troops in the reserves, there's plenty of bad troops in the reserves, that's no different than the reg-force. There's also good leaders and bad leaders.

Far far far to often though, particularly as a signaler sitting manning a CP, I've seen exercises fall apart at the command and control level, and the logistics level, because despite having read about these things and been taught about them, leaders have absolutely no idea how to actually use them. Some are good, many are not.

If we don't train as an army, how do we call ourselves an army? If you pump all your resources into training individuals as individuals, and then expect them to come together when needed, with little to no experience doing that, how is that not a militia?

We (our local army units, sometimes the local nav-res unit, as well as the air-res and even the rangers have shown up) have been having great success with collective training... the "cramming a brigade exercises into a weekend" sort. Immediately after the last ARCON ex, we started running our own mini  version. It was very much a gong-show the first couple of years, but got better each time, as people learned, it's getting pretty effective now.

Of course there's no point in exercising the bigger stuff, if the individuals can't do their jobs, but we've been getting pretty good at integrating individual and section training into the larger training.

 

[MilEME09]

This is one of the major communication gaps between the Regular Force and the Reserves.  Regular Force members can not comprehend the fact that unlike them, the Reservist can not at the drop of a hat go on career courses.  They require a good amount of lead time to arrange Leave from their Civilian jobs to attend a Crse.  That is if there is even a Crse to begin with.  If there are limited numbers of positions on Reg Force Crses for Reservists, then there is a long line up of people nominated and no guarantees that they will be choosen to attend.  That complicates any planning for absences from their Civilian job; do they get the crse or not and when will they know for sure.  The shortages of spaces on a crse, or even the crse itself, compounds the amount of Trades Trg Reservists in some Trades will progress through.  Availability of resources, equipment, continuation trg, etc. after having a crse is also important.  Without that, knowledge fade occurs. 

So; yes it is easier to train them on their basic soldier skills at their unit on regular training nights and weekends.

This about sums it up, and at the same time, more for CSS since I don't know how it is in the combat arms, what motivation does a soldier have to go on a career course if when he or she returns to the unit they won't use the skills they learned? Then to top it off take heat from the chain of command when we cant do anything on a support exercise because only six people showed up and are trying to do the work of 20, and cant do the work anyway cause of a lack of tools. If we are to make some cuts, or more money i should say, I think we could save money if we actually had people who knew how to run things properly. I mean if your planning for $26,000 weekend EX for an expected 35 people and 15 show up, that adds up over the course of a training year as wasted funds.

 

[Kirkhill]

We have already seen the 10/90 Bns in the past.  They failed.  Perhaps we didn't give them the time to actually become effective; but at the end of the day, they were done away with and returned to full Regular Force Bns.

I remember years ago, the idea being bounced around in the RCD lines, before the whole unit went to Coyotes and became Recce, of having a Troop of Reservists join the Regiment as Class B Callouts to fill a Recce Troop of jeeps/Iltis/G Wagen.  They would have been drawn from all of the LFCA Armour units.  Funding and vehicle shortages ended that idea before it ever took off in any serious planning.

Wow.  I'm having trouble keeping up here.

George - You hit the nail on the head - funding and vehicle shortages. It doesn't really matter whose ox is gored, somebody's ox is going to be gored. 

The point I am trying to make is that any effective organization is going to spend money.  If there are to be Reserves then money needs to be spent on them. 

Is it realistic that you can turn part-time volunteers into effective Reserves?  To be honest I am not convinced.  I think I would sooner see Reserves supplied from all those Reg Force types that are seeking release into the Alberta economy.  I would be inclined to grant conditional releases to the Supp List, with a cash value for staying engaged, and bringing those troops back every couple of years for paid refreshers.

The Homeguard model of unpaid volunteers, supplemented with a cadre of full time instructors and administrators, does seem to be a cheap way to ensure "community engagement".

I have to break off now and go to work - so I apologize in advance for not continuing the discussion.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I found as a young Troop Leader and then Battle Captain in the reserves circa 1989-1997 that the best training was weekend ranges and summer concentrations. The weekend ranges were actually useful and you could get basic soldiering done in the time allotted. This was true whether for personal weapons or Cougars. The summer concentrations let you actually get some tactical development going. I found the Thursday nights to be not very useful outside of the social aspect of going to the mess.

I should add that we had a few table top/cloth model exercises on weekends that were very useful.

I did an exchange with a Unites States Marine Corps reserve battalion, and they had one weekend a month with a two week Annual Training (AT) event. The monthly weekend was always shooting. The AT was somewhere and something interesting (mountain my year, amphib the next, Norway the year before etc).

If we were looking to save money but preserve effectiveness, my thought would be to cut evening parades and focus on one range weekend a month plus an annual two week concentration.

 

[Dissident]

If we were looking to save money but preserve effectiveness, my thought would be to cut evening parades and focus on one range weekend a month plus an annual two week concentration.

I could live with that. Quite easily as a matter of fact. Especially if this get us trigger time on weapon system we don't get enough of and allow us to do live fire mounted drill.

 

[dapaterson]

Ideally, the Sept-May training year should work build from individual skills in the fall, to small groups (det / section) in the winter, to section/platoon in the spring, with summer exercsies to confirm the platoons.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Training evenings can be useful.  A month of training should have about one night of annual required briefings (IBTS etc); one night of refreshers for the upcoming exercise combined with stores & equipment prep; one night of post- exercise drills (clean up kit etc) plus one night geared towards PD/fitness (for support trades, much of that could be consumed with trade-specific work to maintain skillsets).

Building a regular, predictable training cycle makes it easier on planners and easier on the troops - they know what to expect and can see how things fit together.


Or someone can say around 18:30, "Hell, it's a training night.  Better think up something quick!"

 

[ArmyRick]

Training nights in my regiment are very useful. TOETs for troops, Teaching weapons drills for potential MCPLs, walk through and rehearsals of sect and platoon drills, etc.

My regiment, from sept to now we have covered off on thursday nights, C7, C6 Light and SF, C9, Grenade, M203, M72, Carl G, Shotgun, Lee enfield, as well as other patrol, offensive ops, etc.

Now having said that, what is more useful, weekend vs weeknights, weekends hands down! But if we only do weekends, we risk a soldier going NES very easily and quickly. A slippery slope.

 

[Rifleman62]

A idea we used was to print and distribute for all ranks, the annual trg plan calendar in a flip calendar booklet that fit in the cbt shirt pocket. All trg days/nights, FTX's. Range shoots. CO's Pde (once per month), Solder's Xmas Dinner,  etc, etc. The trg days/wkends all had a short summary of the activities for that period. FTX's had location, aim, skills in basic form.

BP was incorporated for FTX's i.e. four weeks out the Coy Comd issued OO, three weeks out the Pl Comd issued OO's, two weeks out the Sect Comd issued OO's, one week out, confirmatory OO for the OIC Ex. This was printed in the calender, so everyone knew what was to happen and the leaders knew what was expected.

Range shoots had preliminary trg listed including TEWTS on the wpns and indoor trg secessions. We used the indoor wpn trainer more than all the units in Minto Armoury.

If something fell through the cracks as it sometimes did on a Tuesday night - down to the wpn trainer (I forget what it is called!!)

This did save money because it improved retention. The unit did not fool around with NES. You paraded or you where out. All were briefed on this during the annual briefing to all ranks on the Bde approved trg plan. The soldiers appreciated getting rid of the dead wood.

Print extra for pers who join the unit later on in the year, including those who enroll and will be off to Garrison for BMT.

Don't get me going on the PRes CSS trg. DAP knows the four/five year study I did on the CF Schools complete failure of trg PRes CSS soldiers.

 

[MilEME09]

How long ago did you do that study and is there a place to view it?

 

[Rifleman62]

Nov 05.  I will try to condense.

 

[MilEME09]

Nov 05.  I will try to condense.

Downloading the entire report would be fine too if that's easier for you

 

[Stoker]

To be honest i think the NAVres has it right.  I believe they don't exercise during the year but have training events on tuesdays and on weekends but they certainly aren't always on ships or doing true naval exercises during the year (coastal units not withstanding) but focus on sailor and soldier skills until tehy are deployed for summer taskings and class b on MCVDs.  I could be wrong though. 

This would be a good approach for the army reserves.  Focus on IT and section level (maybe platoon) drills and validate that during summer concentrations.  Most units can't exercise beyond the platoon level anyways and CSMs and Coy commanders would only truly benefit during the concentrations anyway.  They likely don't get much at the unit level beyond admin.  Some exceptions exist but are rare.

I for one would like to see NAVRES eliminated as a formation and fleet school Quebec closed and amalgamated into the fleet schools in Halifax.  At one point NAVRES was actually in Halifax and reserve trades in fleet schools on both coasts. I know there is political considerations, but still a good idea.

 

[kratz]

I have to disagree with you Chief Stoker on your points.

The very reasons NAVRES appear "to have it together", is they own their reservists.
A positive example is that we are the only PRes with our own Career Managers.
Following your suggestion, we would not have CMs or be at higher risk of being
rated less than our actual ability for our trade/platform.

There are well deserved reasons all the historical SHAD and other negative comments
were used to describe naval reservists.

Through the past 20 years, in many areas, standards set by NAVRES, but virtue of being it's own formation,
have shown to have been higher than the other formations. ie: days at sea, NRTD, Port Security
Those tasks and recognition for them would not have been realized under your suggestion.

Aside from headquarters and CFNOS (Q), what savings vice good would be achieved against
the independence to meet the assigned tasks? Cutting for saving sake is the worst answer.

 

[Stoker]

I have to disagree with you Chief Stoker on your points.

The very reasons NAVRES appear "to have it together", is they own their reservists.
A positive example is that we are the only PRes with our own Career Managers.
Following your suggestion, we would not have CMs or be at higher risk of being
rated less than our actual ability for our trade/platform.

There are well deserved reasons all the historical SHAD and other negative comments
were used to describe naval reservists.

Through the past 20 years, in many areas, standards set by NAVRES, but virtue of being it's own formation,
have shown to have been higher than the other formations. ie: days at sea, NRTD, Port Security
Those tasks and recognition for them would not have been realized under your suggestion.

Aside from headquarters and CFNOS (Q), what savings vice good would be achieved against
the independence to meet the assigned tasks? Cutting for saving sake is the worst answer.

Not all NAVRES CM's are reservists such as my CM who is a regular force Mar Eng. Res CM can continue in Ottawa or Halifax. Many NAVRES trades are done in other fleet schools anyways and with all trades eventually being the same as their regular force counterparts they could easily accommodated in the various fleet schools just as it was done before and close proximity to the ships would be beneficial. Right now people are flown back and forth at significant cost to do various modules on the ships. I personally think the reason why there is such a divide between res and reg is that NAVRES is tucked away in Quebec City filled with people who never go to sea. We would be better served in my opinion to be absorbed in MARLANT, with res billets of course. Even moving NAVRES back to Halifax like it was in the early eighties, probably would want more people to actually want to work there!

 

[WLSC]

Probably the biggest saving for the PRes is the same as where savings in the RegF shoud come from: the bloated overhead.

Realistically, few reserve "Battalions" or "Regiments" parade more than an actual Coy sized unit in any location, and many nights and weekends we see reinforced platoons/troops on the road, overseen by a LCol, RSM, a hocky sock of Majors, Captains, MWO's etc. Bde Headquarters are also great places to visit with a flamethrower, during my time at 31 CBGHQ we had a double handfull of ACOS positions manned by LCols who had finished their command tours (this on top of the "real" positions like BComd, COS and one specialist Col; the Bde Surgeon). Remember too this is on top of the 15 LCols and staffs for the 15 units.....

Most units could be comfortably run by a Major, and virtually all the ACOS positions were the sort being sniped upthread. If we really have a special project that needs that much horsepower, these LCols could be drawn from the Sup Reserve list, given a 30 day contract to get the job done and a thank you note at the end. As for the need for senior officers to run the various branches, my boss, the G6, was a Capt, and I worked as acting branch head at my rank when my boss was away for a tour.

You are right but...

Since the regiment are not combat organisation but more of a family name, do not put the Majors and MWO doing the tactical and the institutional in the same time.  That's purely madness.

His there to much units ? Yes.  Can we do things differently ? Yes.  Will it happen ?  Dont know, dont thing so.  34 GBC is quite lucky to have 3/4 of its units IVO the Montreal island, this solution might not work for each CBG.  Can we, in Montreal, out of the 5 regiments (2 franco and 3 anglo) have 2 battalions (one franco, one anglo) on the island and move one (franco) on the South shore ? Yes.  Will it be done, dont know but feasable.  Can we amalgamate some units so all those regimental institution could be manager at the right level ? Yes.  Will it be done, I really dont think it will.   

Those money saving need to be seen in all the defence spending, where the big fish are, should we begin at the tactical level ?  Dont know ether but I would say, for once, begin way higher.

If we really go and push the issue of having regiment be commended by Majors, push the logic to the limit and amalgamate.  Do not let a poor 30 years old Majors and his MWO dealing with career management, institutions, training, and every thing else alone.

As for training, we should go away from doing every thing individual training.  It was supposed to be the miracle system,and this is why we had 14 months work-up training.  No a lot remembered how to do the basics as a unit.  We should aim to go back to the old ratio of 40 indiv & 60 collective but, structure properlly so the collective training could be use to do OJT so it could be validated.  In short, aim the old ratio but not the old way of doing business wich was some time, scarry. 

We will never have the perfect system, just the best we can hmake out of it and make it work.

Sorry to bring and ''old'' reply.

 

[MilEME09]

As for training, we should go away from doing every thing individual training.  It was supposed to be the miracle system,and this is why we had 14 months work-up training.  No a lot remembered how to do the basics as a unit.  We should aim to go back to the old ratio of 40 indiv & 60 collective but, structure properlly so the collective training could be use to do OJT so it could be validated.  In short, aim the old ratio but not the old way of doing business wich was some time, scarry. 

I think part of this too is that many reserve units try to compress to many concepts into one training year, as a result budget is spent trying to cover all these issues. I would sooner see Reserve units use a cycle system where we focus on more specific training goals in a year and change roles the following year and so on. by putting the focus on one type of training I think that could save some money.