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Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador for urging release of activists

Remius said:
I think it has more to do with Baird criticising the tweet when he himself did the exact same thing back in 2015 involving the Badawis.

It's hypocrisy and he does not come off as credible.

Who cares? Just another talking head.

Really, the whole thing is posturing and rutting.

All we really need to know is if the PM will cut all ties or not and the pros and cons of each. Not what started it, not who is responsible, not anything else. Because it doesn't matter to the outcome. It's just white noise. The door is open, the only thing we should be talking about is if we walk through it or not.

Will he stand up and cup his balls and tell them to piss off? Cancel the GDLS contract and their oil shipments. They have nothing we need or want. Cutting off KSA will domino into other ME countries not dealing with us, eventually, maybe, we'll have no interests in the ME at all and can forget about them and leave them to kill themselves.

Or he can turtle and lose more respect and treasure.

An aside, if the GDLS contract is so essential to the facility in Ontario that we need the KSA contract to stay afloat, what happens to London when the contract is fulfilled? Aren't we just postponing the inevitable closing of the plant(s)? It's going to happen, but no politician wants it on their watch. That's all.
 
recceguy said:
Who cares? Just another talking head.

We should all care.

Baird is not just another talking head whom we should ignore...he's a previous Minister of Foreign Affairs and speaking contemporarily on Saudi TV - he brings himself directly into the current dialogue and that makes his words very germane.

You can't broad-brush things into the "that was the past, let's move on from Harper-bashing" when it's something that is quite clearly NOT in the past.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
 
recceguy said:
Who cares? Just another talking head.

You are not totally wrong.  No one at work here is even aware of the KSA/Canada Tiff.  They are more concerned with a boa constrictor on the loose
 
Baird likely does not remember, he was my Minister and his office was one of the most unorganized ones I had to displeasure of dealing with. Now he is a paid lackey consultant for someone else.
 
Good2Golf said:
We should all care.

Baird is not just another talking head whom we should ignore...he's a previous Minister of Foreign Affairs and speaking contemporarily on Saudi TV - he brings himself directly into the current dialogue and that makes his words very germane.

You can't broad-brush things into the "that was the past, let's move on from Harper-bashing" when it's something that is quite clearly NOT in the past.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Canada is on its own in this one. If other countries were interested, I'm sure they'd be trying to smooth things over. They are not. This is between Canada and KSA. No one else cares. This is not a world problem. It is ours.

As far as past being past, history and the reason for the direction it takes is important. What isn't important, is polluting the process with the common practice of blaming previous governments, politicians and processes, because you fucked up and won't take responsibility.
 
recceguy said:
Canada is on its own in this one. If other countries were interested, I'm sure they'd be trying to smooth things over. They are not. This is between Canada and KSA. No one else cares. This is not a world problem. It is ours.

This guy doesn't seem to think so:

While this might be good propaganda for the Saudis, the truth is a little different, and the facts seem to have slipped between the cracks. So let me state it clearly: Canada is not alone, and it will not be left to face this crisis alone. The notion that Canada would be left to fend for itself is unthinkable.

Britain has been working behind the scenes to prevent any escalation of the dispute. The United States, meanwhile, has been bogged down attempting to heal a year-long spat between Qatar and its neighbours in order to face down Iran, upon whom Washington placed multiple sanctions last week.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-no-canada-is-not-alone-in-facing-saudi-arabia/
 
To what end? When the rubber hits the road, we'll know if anyone is there.

Diplomatic talk, acting like the mediator. It has always been the way with outside governments. How many times have we heard this, only to find out they weren't doing anything? They seldom interfere unless their own interests are at stake. And really, that is why they get involved. To protect their own national interest and get assurances nothing is changing for them.

I'll believe it when I see it.
 

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recceguy said:
Turn around 180 degrees. The constant 'its Harpers fault' or 'other governments did it, why cant we?' Blaming previous governments is standard fare. However, it doesnt mean anything to moving forward. The exception being making things better. Do we blame Trudeau Sr for Junior being PM? How far back do you want to blame? You can't march forward with confidence, if your walking and looking over your shoulder. Kinda a rear view mirror/ windshield thing. If a politician is using 'the other guy did it too.' He hasnt got a reason for what hes doing.
Out of all that, you got I was saying, "'its Harpers fault' or 'other governments did it, why cant we?'"? 

Thanks for brilliantly illustrating my point. 
 
garb811 said:
Out of all that, you got I was saying, "'its Harpers fault' or 'other governments did it, why cant we?'"? 

Thanks for brilliantly illustrating my point.

We can stop blaming the deep state and Hillary then also  :rofl:

Baird was out of line and this was one of the biggest partisan hack jobs I've seen in Canadian politics in a long time.  Not only is he deeply hypocritical considering he condemned the torture of a Saudi blogger several years ago,  what's even more disturbing is him going on Saudi state TV and blaming Trudeau for this, asking him to apologize. The Saudi's would hang this man if he was one of their own citizens for being openly gay.  Baird and anyone defending or making this a non issue should ashamed of themselves.  The Prime Minister and his party are far from perfect.  They have made quite a few mistakes but there comes a time when you need to leave petty partisanship behind and support your country and this is one of them.

This is just more proof that there is a deepening philosophy these days that party politics comes before country.  It's reared it's ugly head here since the Obama administration, worsened during Trudeau and Trump's terms and is vitiating political discourse.   

We don't need allies in this fight against the Saudi's.  We need to be united.  If anything this massive %$*$ up by Baird is going to cost the conservatives come 2019.
 
TheHead said:
We don't need allies in this fight against the Saudi's.  We need to be united.

Oh, so now its "My government, right or wrong."? You know who else doesn't like opposition dissent of its government policies? Saudi Arabia. China. 30 other dictatorships. Canada is a democracy, and that means we can politically disagree with the current government and not get thrown in jail. Unless I missed the point of Freeland's tweet.

Most here would agree that the KSA is full of not nice people with not nice policies that would be awesome to have changed to a more western approach. The issue is using Twitter as a diplomatic tool, and attempting to conduct soft diplomacy with no actual soft power to back it up, as well as declaring Canada the protector of human rights while allowing many other countries off the hook (where's the Twitter callout of China?). If you cannot see that, then you're just arguing with a mirror.

No one is going to remember John Baird sticking his nose in here in Oct 2019, especially if he doesn't run. You'll also note that despite him stating Canada was "deeply concerned by flogging of @raif_badawi - it is a violation of human dignity and freedom of expression", he was able to voice that position without catastrophically destroying economic/diplomatic relations with a sovereign state because he did not call for his release. We also cannot easily find the text of the official statement because the Trudeau Liberals petitioned Google to purge all Harper Government webcached announcements.
 
PuckChaser said:
Oh, so now its "My government, right or wrong."? You know who else doesn't like opposition dissent of its government policies? Saudi Arabia. China. 30 other dictatorships. Canada is a democracy, and that means we can politically disagree with the current government and not get thrown in jail. Unless I missed the point of Freeland's tweet.

Most here would agree that the KSA is full of not nice people with not nice policies that would be awesome to have changed to a more western approach. The issue is using Twitter as a diplomatic tool, and attempting to conduct soft diplomacy with no actual soft power to back it up, as well as declaring Canada the protector of human rights while allowing many other countries off the hook (where's the Twitter callout of China?). If you cannot see that, then you're just arguing with a mirror.

No one is going to remember John Baird sticking his nose in here in Oct 2019, especially if he doesn't run. You'll also note that despite him stating Canada was "deeply concerned by flogging of @raif_badawi - it is a violation of human dignity and freedom of expression", he was able to voice that position without catastrophically destroying economic/diplomatic relations with a sovereign state because he did not call for his release. We also cannot easily find the text of the official statement because the Trudeau Liberals petitioned Google to purge all Harper Government webcached announcements.

That last bit is rather alarming. Is there documentation of this?

Regardless, I do wonder - would the response from KSA be any less severe if the comments made on Twitter were instead made in the Commons?
 
Oh, so now its "My government, right or wrong."? You know who else doesn't like opposition dissent of its government policies? Saudi Arabia. China. 30 other dictatorships. Canada is a democracy, and that means we can politically disagree with the current government and not get thrown in jail. Unless I missed the point of Freeland's tweet.

Let's drop the hyperbole.  You are free to disagree with anything Mr. Trudeau and his cabinet does.  Let's not pretend thought for one minute that partisanship hasn't hit a scary level in the past 8 years though and there is an irrational hatred for Liberals here from some.  I guess we could call it Liberal Derangement Syndrome ;)

Most here would agree that the KSA is full of not nice people with not nice policies that would be awesome to have changed to a more western approach. The issue is using Twitter as a diplomatic tool, and attempting to conduct soft diplomacy with no actual soft power to back it up, as well as declaring Canada the protector of human rights while allowing many other countries off the hook (where's the Twitter callout of China?). If you cannot see that, then you're just arguing with a mirror.

  Wait,  we're suddenly upset about using Twitter as a diplomatic tool?  I hate to tread into whataboutism but where is the outrage when the most powerful man in the world is using Twitter to get into a dick measuring contests with nuclear-armed rivals?  That's right, there is none.  There were twitter callouts of China.  From Baird https://twitter.com/Baird/status/535806932263899136  And Russia https://twitter.com/Baird/status/559777129387552769 and Syria. https://twitter.com/Baird/status/411538776842698752

[No one is going to remember John Baird sticking his nose in here in Oct 2019, especially if he doesn't run. You'll also note that despite him stating Canada was "deeply concerned by flogging of @raif_badawi - it is a violation of human dignity and freedom of expression", he was able to voice that position without catastrophically destroying economic/diplomatic relations with a sovereign state because he did not call for his release.
 
As I stated earlier.  Baird called for the release of several persons from other countries and received no push back.  You didn't see Liberals going on RT or China's state TV.  The only reason Baird went on Saudi TV is Baird now works for position on the advisory board for Barrick, a major mining firm with interests in Saudi Arabia. The company owns a 50-per-cent stake of Jabal Sayid which is a copper mine in Saudi Arabia.

Also, you bet your ass this is going to hurt the conservatives.  The conservatives need centrists and moderates to win the next election and outside the hug box that is these forums a lot of people are pissed off that an important conservative like Baird would pull a sleezy move like this.  This does nothing but hurt Sheer in 2019. 

We also cannot easily find the text of the official statement because the Trudeau Liberals petitioned Google to purge all Harper Government webcached announcements.

I honestly don't know the relevance of this or even if it's true.  I tried to googlefoo it but came up with nothing.
 
PuckChaser said:
We also cannot easily find the text of the official statement because the Trudeau Liberals petitioned Google to purge all Harper Government webcached announcements.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/google-explains-why-harper-search-results-were-scrubbed/article30499196/

This is The Globe's daily politics newsletter. Sign up to get it by e-mail each morning.

POLITICS BRIEFING

Google has been reaching out to journalists in the last 24 hours to clarify a story about how search results for government web pages from the Harper era were deleted. As iPolitics and the Canadian Press reported, the day that Justin Trudeau was sworn in as prime minister all government websites (such as pm.gc.ca) were updated to reflect their new boss. The Privy Council Office – Ottawa's bureaucratic nerve centre – then began to make requests to Google to remove search results that referenced former prime minister Stephen Harper.

"I do think it begs the question as to why the government would try to rewrite history. It's a little petty," Conservative MP Candice Bergen told reporters yesterday.

So what actually happened?

Google says no censorship was involved and it processed the requests as it would from any website owner who requested old cached results be cleared to reflect what the website is like now.

"It's important to make the distinction between requests to remove search results – versus webmaster requests (made by website owners) – that help ensure Google Search accurately reflects the content of a publisher's website," Aaron Brindle, Google Canada's head of public affairs, wrote in a statement.

Mr. Brindle said the process was not to be confused with how the tech company deals with official government requests, which are tracked in Google's transparency reports.

The Privy Council Office does archive websites from former prime ministers, if you want a blast from the past.
 
The KSA has obviously taken the measure of the government and realized they have nothing to fear. Keeping Quebec votes is of far higher priority than actually following through with measures for detained activists in the Kingdom, so Saudi oil continues to flow unimpeded into Canada. I would suggest the KSA has a far better read of our domestic situation than we have of theirs:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/gunter-saudi-oil-still-gets-a-pass-on-trudeaus-enviro-rules-and-taxes

GUNTER: Saudi oil still gets a pass on Trudeau's enviro rules and taxes
Lorne Gunter
Published:
August 10, 2018
Updated:
August 10, 2018 4:45 PM EDT

Just a quick question for the Trudeau government about its current tiff with the Saudis: If you’re serious about standing up to Riyadh, how come you are stilling giving their oil a free pass? How come you have exempted it from your upcoming carbon tax and are not subjecting Saudi oil to the same environmental regulations you have imposed on Western Canadian oil?

It couldn’t be because most Saudi oil is destined for Quebec?

You’re supposed to be in a battle with the Saudis, yet an objective outside observer might think you’re at war with Alberta, instead.

There are a lot of questions that could be asked of the Liberals over the fight they started with the Saudis.

For instance, while there is no doubt the Saudis have overreacted (big time), there is equally no doubt Liberal cabinet minister Chrystia Freeland started this row by sending out a couple of self-righteous tweets last week criticizing the Saudis for recent arrests of human rights activists.

This was nothing more than moralistic grandstanding by the Liberals. They ignored proper diplomatic channels and don’t seem to have planned to follow-up their social media sanctimoniousness by having our diplomats in the kingdom file formal complaints.

The Liberals simply launched a couple of fire-and-forget missiles, with no thought of how the Saudis might react, just to prove to people in Canada how hip and high-minded they are. Changing Saudi human rights policy was never their intention.

Freeland and the Liberals are right about the substance of their complaint. Saudi Arabia should release noted rights advocate Samar Badawi, who has been imprisoned for her political views. But if they really wanted Badawi freed, a pair of holier-than-thou tweets was never going to do it.

So one of the other questions the Liberals could be asked is: How are your thoughtless-bravado tweets any different from Donald Trump’s? Your tone might be more sophisticated than the U.S. President’s, but you both set off international incidents by not thinking before you message.

Still, the most important question is my first one: How come in the middle of a trade spat with the Saudis, Ottawa isn’t even imposing the same taxes and regulations on Saudi oil that it imposes on Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland oil?

It looks as if, a) the Liberal government isn’t serious about standing up to the Saudis and b) they aren’t serious about their own campaign to reduce emissions and save the planet.

Canada produces about 3.8 million barrels of oil a day. We consume about 1.8 million or 1.9 million, but we export around 2.7 million barrels a day.

Most days that leaves us about 700,000 or 800,000 barrels short, an amount we have to import from the U.S., the Saudis, Nigeria and a handful of other countries.

We have more than enough capacity to supply all our own domestic needs and still export nearly 3.0 million barrels a day. What we lack are pipelines that would enable us to get Canadian oil to Quebec and the Maritimes.

That leaves us dependent on Saudi oil even when we have a valid diplomatic point to make.

The second part, though, is perhaps an even bigger puzzle: If the Liberals are so intent on cutting Canadians’ emissions by imposing a new carbon tax and by creating impossible new environmental standards for the approval of new pipelines, how come they let foreign oil enter the country without subjecting it to the same “green” taxes or the same environmental screening processes?

Keep in mind, too, that Liberals let millions of tonnes of American coal come into Canada for export to the rest of the world without imposing a carbon tax, either.

The short answer is: The Liberals aren’t a serious government. They’re nothing more than intellectually lightweight virtue-signalers.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
Follow the money.


Exactly!  Baird's ties to companies mining in SA while going against the interests of the Canadian government is troubling.
 
I read your whole post but this was by far my favourite thing on this site in a while:

TheHead said:
... the hug box that is these forums ...

:rofl:
 
PuckChaser said:
The issue is using Twitter as a diplomatic tool,

On that issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/badawi-saudi-trudeau-freeland-1.4785075

It seems that the Trudeau government had use many other diplomatic overtures and attempts in this case, pretty much after they took office in 2015.  including discreet discussions, phone calls etc.  It would seem that the tweet was just another tool possibly of last resort given all failed attempts using traditional diplomacy.

"In fact, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland took to Twitter earlier this month to criticize the Saudi government's treatment of the Badawi family only after nearly three years of quiet diplomacy had failed to win his freedom and after the Saudis suddenly escalated the situation by arresting Badawi's sister, Samar."



It wasn't some random out of the blue thing as some people seem to think.

The link above seems to counter the current partisan view about the tweet.
 
TheHead said:
Exactly!  Baird's ties to companies mining in SA while going against the interests of the Canadian government is troubling.

Baird is a private citizen now.  He can say what he wishes with in the rights and privileges of our freedom of expression.  In fact he always could, but now as a private citizen trying to link him to party politics is grossly partisan.

Sure he came off as well come off overtly partisan but he hasn't been a politician since Mar 2015 when he resigned.  Hes simply freely expressing his position.  There is no party policy or foreign affairs actions to be taken. 

Are we going to start tying the actions and words of former politicians to their former parties ?  What about party members ?  Will we now start including this information in an attempt to smear from right or left of the spectrum ? 

I agree that the increasing sentiment of party above country and polarization of our politics is sickening, but this reaction to a private citizen using his freedom of expression is just a continuation and exacerbation of this.  No side, right of left, is innocent no matter they try to frame it.

 
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