Saudi Arabia buys 72 Eurofighters

[big bad john]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5262120.stm

Saudi Arabia buys 72 Eurofighters 

The Eurofighter has taken more than 20 years to design and build
Saudi Arabia has confirmed it is to buy 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft from the UK, in a deal that could be worth more than £6bn.
The contract, brokered between the Saudi government and the Ministry of Defence, will safeguard thousands of jobs at UK defence firm BAE Systems.

Saudi Arabia is buying the Eurofighters to replace its range of Tornado jets which were also made by BAE.

The Eurofighter was developed by BAE with European firms EADS and Alenia.

Confidential figure

"The required commercial principles have now been agreed which has initiated the purchase of Typhoon aircraft and the associated commitment to the industrial plan to be launched," said the Ministry of Defence.

  The real beneficiary is the oppressive regime in Saudi Arabia, one of the world's worst abusers of human rights

Pressure group Campaign Against Arms Trade


Check BAE's share price 

The ministry added that as the financial details of the deal were confidential, it could not reveal exactly how much it was worth.

Some newspaper reports have suggested it could total as much as £10bn.

The Eurofighter's UK headquarters is at Warton, Lancashire, where BAE employs 9,000 people in its aircraft division.

Confirmation of the Saudi deal, which was first proposed in December, saw BAE's shares rise 2.8% by Friday afternoon trading in London.

Criticisms

Yet while the announcement is welcome news for UK business, it will inevitably attract criticism from those who say UK defence companies should not do business with Saudi Arabia because of the Saudi government's poor record on human rights and democracy.

Pressure group Campaign Against Arms Trade criticised the deal, claiming that while it had been subsidised by UK taxpayers, the Ministry of Defence and BAE had "failed to demonstrate any gains for the British public".

"The real beneficiary is the oppressive regime in Saudi Arabia, one of the world's worst abusers of human rights," it added.

The 72 planes will be assembled by BAE in the UK from parts made by all the partners in the Eurofighter project.

BAE itself makes the front and rear fuselage, while European defence consortium EADS and Italy's Alenia build the wings.

Long delays

The Saudi deal is the first confirmed order for the Eurofighter to come from outside the European Union.

Inside Europe, the plane has been ordered by the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy and Austria.

The development of the Eurofighter has been hit by rows and delays, and the project going significantly over-budget.

With work first starting in the early 1980s, the maiden flight did not take place until 1994.

The plane is in competition with the French Rafale.

 

[JBP]

Unless us or our allies will be going to war with Saudi Arabia in the next 25 or so years, then who cares really... Sure they're 'evil' and 'oppressive' and all that, but it's not like we're going to be stepping in anytime soon to change that either. So might as well take thier money... Even if war happened, it's not like 75 Eurofighters could stop 150 F-22 Raptors and 150 F35 JSF's when time comes... So it doesn't matter...

:

 

[aesop081]

it's not like 75 Eurofighters could stop 150 F-22 Raptors and 150 F35 JSF's when time comes... So it doesn't matter...

and an equal  : to you for that comment.  Granted that Saudi Pilots are probably not on par, you are just a bit too quick to dismiss the Typhoon.  Maybe you can use your extensive knowledge and experience in air warfare to make your case.

 

[JBP]

and an equal  : to you for that comment.  Granted that Saudi Pilots are probably not on par, you are just a bit too quick to dismiss the Typhoon.  Maybe you can use your extensive knowledge and experience in air warfare to make your case.

I'd be happy to give a run-down of why I think the F-22A's and F-35's would be so successful....

You're right though, the Typhoon shouldn't be simply dismissed, although with the advent of technologies incorperated into the F-22A, like it's stealth characteristics which provide a 'first-shot first-kill' capability beyond any significant other abilities, the Typhoon would be no match as an air superiority fighter. In air-to-air trails, the F-22A took on 5 F-15 Eagles in simulated combat and defeated them all. This was due to the fact that the F-15's could not attain a radar middle lock on the F-22 even after the F-22A had "fired" it's first volley of missles. This is the first-shot first-kill capability. The largest advantage the F-22 will have against all other aircraft is surprise. It will have fired missles on target before the target even realizes there is a threat. Furthermore, the F-22A has 'supercruise' ability which ensures it will enter combat at a far higher rate of speed than most of the enemy combatants, and it's been shown in studies that much of the time, the aircraft that enters the fight with more energy usually has a better chance of winning in a dogfight also. Supercruise also gives the Raptor an advantage over the Typhoon in travel times, distance and loiter time. Add to this the fact the F-22A is retaining the ability to be upgraded to fibre-optic controls, which would mean the aircraft has instantaneous response to the pilots' inputs which needless to say, would have a direct impact on air-to-air combat if it comes to close in dog-fighting... And the fact that the F-22A will be armed with the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missle (AMRAAM) which means it will be able to engage the Typhoon at a farther distance then it's own weapon systems and you are almost ensured victory, especially coupled with the 'good guys' training...

Anyway, I'll type more later but I am just heading out, but I wanted to put up some kind of response at the moment... I'll post later with more about the F-35 also...

Many people say the F-22A is over-rated and such, but when you look at those facts and abilities alone, it's truly the Raptor of air-to-air warefare...

 

[aesop081]

Joe,

You are right, the F-22 is a marvel of technology.  There is no doubt in my mind.  But technology is not the only deciding factor in a fight.  Look at current operations in Afghanistan.  We bring jet fighters, AFVs, precision guided munitions and the best training money can buy.  We have had some impressive successes but have also taken a bloody nose at the hands of the rather unsophisticated taliban.In international exercises and competitions, our AF has managed to put to shame more advanced air air arms such as the USAF and USN despite bringing to the table aircraft that are 20-30 years old equipped with technology that belongs in a museum.  Real combat and simulate combat are 2 different things as well. I like you example of where and F-22 has shot down 5 F-15s in simulated combat.  This proves that the F-22 can in fact dominate the engagement at beyond visual range (BVR). It would be naive to assume that it would be able to do the same in actual combat.  Remember that, even since times gone by, "experts" have declared the death of the dogfight and proclaimed that all engagements would be done BVR.  The US was caught with its pants down in the air war over Viet-Nam when its fighters were indeed fast and capable in the BVR but failled miserably because they were engaged in the medium to close range by a surprisingly tough opponent.  BVR engagement is tough, i tell you this first had as one of my duties it OTHT ( over-the -horizon-targeting).  It is never easy, even with sophisticated sensors to positively identify contacts beyond the visual range.  All the sensors in the world will not remove the possibility of shooting the wrong target.  This is where BVR combat has its weaknesses.  In a dynamic combat environment, it is often required to make a positive ID before engaging.  The F-22s amazing capabilities at BVR engagements will be useless in the close to medium range fight that will ensue from restrictive rules of engagement and will have to fight it out in dogfights with the like of the Typhoon, Rafale and similar aircraft.  In this arena, it is not so certain if the enemy comes trained and determined at its craft.

Edit: To add to my point about positive ID, look at operation in the first gulf war.  Most engagements were done at visual ranges because of the high number of aircraft in the AO and the fact that some of the Alies flew the same aircraft as the Iraqi AF.  Things like mode 2/4 will only do so much for you and are never fool proof.  Read "every man a tiger" if you ever get the chance.

 

[JBP]

Joe,

You are right, the F-22 is a marvel of technology.  There is no doubt in my mind.  But technology is not the only deciding factor in a fight.  Look at current operations in Afghanistan.  We bring jet fighters, AFVs, precision guided munitions and the best training money can buy.  We have had some impressive successes but have also taken a bloody nose at the hands of the rather unsophisticated taliban.In international exercises and competitions, our AF has managed to put to shame more advanced air air arms such as the USAF and USN despite bringing to the table aircraft that are 20-30 years old equipped with technology that belongs in a museum.  Real combat and simulate combat are 2 different things as well. I like you example of where and F-22 has shot down 5 F-15s in simulated combat.  This proves that the F-22 can in fact dominate the engagement at beyond visual range (BVR). It would be naive to assume that it would be able to do the same in actual combat.  Remember that, even since times gone by, "experts" have declared the death of the dogfight and proclaimed that all engagements would be done BVR.  The US was caught with its pants down in the air war over Viet-Nam when its fighters were indeed fast and capable in the BVR but failled miserably because they were engaged in the medium to close range by a surprisingly tough opponent.  BVR engagement is tough, i tell you this first had as one of my duties it OTHT ( over-the -horizon-targeting).  It is never easy, even with sophisticated sensors to positively identify contacts beyond the visual range.  All the sensors in the world will not remove the possibility of shooting the wrong target.  This is where BVR combat has its weaknesses.  In a dynamic combat environment, it is often required to make a positive ID before engaging.  The F-22s amazing capabilities at BVR engagements will be useless in the close to medium range fight that will ensue from restrictive rules of engagement and will have to fight it out in dogfights with the like of the Typhoon, Rafale and similar aircraft.  In this arena, it is not so certain if the enemy comes trained and determined at its craft.

Edit: To add to my point about positive ID, look at operation in the first gulf war.  Most engagements were done at visual ranges because of the high number of aircraft in the AO and the fact that some of the Alies flew the same aircraft as the Iraqi AF.  Things like mode 2/4 will only do so much for you and are never fool proof.  Read "every man a tiger" if you ever get the chance.

Ahhh... VERY good point indeed about BVR... I wonder if the US Forces comms systems will ever incorporate well enough so that it will easily extracted if a bogey at 50 miles out is friendly or not by simple matter of communication with AWACS etc... ? We all know that is how it's suppose to work... Although as you just pointed out that's not how it has worked. And if so, even then I doubt they'd be able to let loose at range due to the fact that thier allies won't be as integrated with thier comms and command structure which will obviously be an issue...

I'll try to find that book you mentiond.

Joe