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Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread

Which do you prefer


  • Total voters
    281
the 48th regulator said:
You cannot call our system, distinctly Canadian, it is not.

It is Canadian for the fact the awards are issued to mainly Canadians, that is where the distinction stops.  When we still await HM Queen Elizabeth II, The Queen of Canada to approve the medals, there is nothing distinct, other than we are still part of Britannia.

Until the whole system is overhauled, we keep our heritage, revamp the decision making process, and rid our the alignment with British Medals (i.e. the V.C) we cannot pontificate the fact of our apparent Canadian individuality on the Global scheme of awards systems.

We can beat our chest and call ourselves Canadian, while blessing our Queens long life, but in the end, our system is NOT "Canadian".

If by Canadian you mean it has to have been invented from the ground up in Canada, with no external influence of any kind, then we will probably never see such a system.  But it is possible to have a distinctly Canadian system that still reflects our heritage, wherever that may come from.  I would argue that we have that now.  The vast majority of our honours and awards were designed here; all of the decisions regarding them -- name, criteria for award, design, materials, everything -- are made by Canadian officials.

I'd argue that a historically pure Canadian system along the lines that you seem to be suggesting, with no external influence whatsoever, wouldn't even include circular medals hanging from one's chest by bits of ribbon -- after all, those weren't invented here.
 
Neill McKay said:
If by Canadian you mean it has to have been invented from the ground up in Canada, with on external influence, then we will probably never see such a system.  But it is possible to have a Canadian system that still reflects our heritage, wherever that may come from.  The vast majority of our honours and awards were designed here; all of the decisions regarding them -- name, criteria for award, design, materials, everything -- are made by Canadian officials.

I'd argue that a historically pure Canadian system along the lines that you seem to be suggesting, with no external influence whatsoever, wouldn't even include circular medals hanging from one's chest by bits of ribbon -- after all, those weren't invented here.

No No,

Don't read me wrong.

What I am trying to point out to the numerous people who claim that our system is distinctly Canadian, is that it is not.

We still follow a British system, and there is nothing wrong with that, unfortunately there is little that I regard as distinctly Canadian.

Teddy was guiding me in the Canadian way, and if you can do the same I will full agree that we do have a distinct Canadian awards system.

Until then, I am still on the fence,

dileas

tess
 
daftandbarmy said:
The wound stripe was discussed heavily in the UK following the Falklands War. It was discarded for many reasons, not least of which they didn't feel it was a good idea to force injured soldiers to have to tell the story of how they were wounded, and where, again and again. Knowing many who have been wounded, some with very serious burns for example, not many of them wanted to talk much about it to strangers.

They also wanted to avoid the hassle, experienced by the US, of deciding what types of wounds to award it for. Bullett? Shrapnel? PTSD? Falling off a truck just behind the FEBA?

I would not be so sure that the talk in the UK has ceased.  This site has several letters saying the same rationale as has been posted in this Topic:
http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/ll/mail3.htm  


 
the 48th regulator said:
We still follow a British system, and there is nothing wrong with that, unfortunately there is little that I regard as distinctly Canadian.

I don't think I'm getting it then.  What in our system do you see as British?  (I'll grant that the VC might be a point for discussion, but apart from that?)
 
Neill McKay said:
I don't think I'm getting it then.  What in our system do you see as British?  (I'll grant that the VC might be a point for discussion, but apart from that?)

Okay,

I guess we shall play ping pong.  Correct me and show me what is not based on the Biritish system, in that any medal is not a direct dirivative of the British Medal it originates from.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group02

Here is a start...

dileas

tess
 
The new awards only started to come on line post 1972.  Everything prior to that date had an old "imperial" connotation to the darned things. 

My Granddad ended up with a CMG, CStJ, DSO, etc, etc.ebgo.....  most all are old Imperial decorations presented to a Canadian officer for his service at the front...
 
the 48th regulator said:
No No,

Don't read me wrong.

What I am trying to point out to the numerous people who claim that our system is distinctly Canadian, is that it is not.

We still follow a British system, and there is nothing wrong with that, unfortunately there is little that I regard as distinctly Canadian.

Teddy was guiding me in the Canadian way, and if you can do the same I will full agree that we do have a distinct Canadian awards system.

Until then, I am still on the fence,

dileas

tess

Hi Tess,

I look at our system (Canada's) as being Canadian, but with many traditions, heritage and influence coming from our British roots (VC George's Cross etc). I hope that makes sense. Same as Australia. We have our own unique ones, yet there is British influence, even down to the ADFLSM, which is 15 yrs, not 12 like the CD. Bars come every 5 yrs thereafter, not 10.

Keeping with tradition, I am not in favour of the Sacrifice Medal, although I am supportive of any mode the government chooses. Wounded soldiers should be recognised, and with an option to wear/not wear this award if the soldier in question does not want to.

Secondly WRT the wound stripe and civvy attire. Would not a pin, a metal replica with the exact or miniture size and epoxy resin colour be suitable? Attaches in the same fashion as say a single medal ribbon, or Presidential Citation (Aussie ones that 3RAR wears, have pins and are worn on the breast, as opposed to 2PPCLI wearing them on the sleeve).

That way it would be an option to wear it or not, and would not damage clothing.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
Secondly WRT the wound stripe and civvy attire. Would not a pin, a metal replica with the exact or miniture size and epoxy resin colour be suitable? Attaches in the same fashion as say a single medal ribbon, or Presidential Citation (Aussie ones that 3RAR wears, have pins and are worn on the breast, as opposed to 2PPCLI wearing them on the sleeve).

Since 2005 we have given CF soldiers the CF Service Pin to wear as part of the Departure with Dignity Program, a 'Purple Heart-type' lapel pin to along side it might be appropriate for wear in civilian clothes.
 
After my 18 yrs 11 months and 22 days of TI in the CF, I got a small gold coloured triservice lapel pin, which says 'service' under it. Got than pin months later, sent to Australia with my discharge certificate.

Is this the same pin??

As for the pin for the wound stripe, I wear more than one lapel pin.

Depending on the occasion, I wear RSL (Returned Soldier's League), RAS (Returned form Active Service) badge, RAEME Tie tack, and CF Service pin. When placed correctly, its not over done.

I still think teh pin is ok, adn we are never going to please anyone.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Wes,

The service pins given out with the release certificate come in 3 colours:  Bronze, Silver & Gold.  Ties in with CD & Clasps... so, what you have my friend is a Bronze service pin.
 
geo said:
Wes,

The service pins given out with the release certificate come in 3 colours:  Bronze, Silver & Gold.  Ties in with CD & Clasps... so, what you have my friend is a Bronze service pin.

What part of 2005 did they come out in?  Didnt see any of those when I left...
 
The CF 75 Service pins were first formalized in 1986 in CFAO 18-23, but were emphasized as part of the Departure with Dignity Program formalized in Apr 2003 - CANFORGEN 052/03

Excerpt from CFAO 18-23 - The classification of the Service Pin awarded is determined by the status of the CD and clasps in receipt at the time of release.  The classifications are as follows:
     a.   retiring members in receipt of the CD -bronze pin.

     b.   retiring members in receipt of the first clasp to the CD -silver
          pin; and

     c.   retiring members in receipt of the second and subsequent clasps
          to the CD -gold pin.

If you were missed you could request one through the Chief of Military Personnel.
 
the 48th regulator said:
I guess we shall play ping pong.  Correct me and show me what is not based on the Biritish system, in that any medal is not a direct dirivative of the British Medal it originates from.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group02

Here is a start...

I'd have to know more about the British system to be able to give you a solid answer.  However, we did specifically get rid of most of the British decorations we used to award some years ago and invent many of our own.  That's the basis of my argument that we have a Canadian honours and awards system.
 
Neill McKay said:
I'd have to know more about the British system to be able to give you a solid answer.  However, we did specifically get rid of most of the British decorations we used to award some years ago and invent many of our own.  That's the basis of my argument that we have a Canadian honours and awards system.

So what you are saying is that you do not know the British system, however you know for a fact that we did specifically get rid of most of the British decorations we used to award some years ago and invent many of our own.

confuse.gif


If that is the case, then I say yes we are distinct in our Medal Awards system, and I stand corrected.

I was hoping you could help in pointing out which ones are being awarded, that are distinctly Canadian.

dileas

tess



 
the 48th regulator said:
I was hoping you could help in pointing out which ones are being awarded, that are distinctly Canadian.

This may assist you.

A-AD-200-000/AG-000 THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES
CHAPTER 2 HONOURS TO INDIVIDUALS
SECTION 1 THE PERSONAL HONOURS SYSTEM
HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT

3. At the beginning of the 20th Century, Canada was a self-governing dominion within the British Empire.  As the country evolved into an independent state, suggestions for the development of its own honours system grew. However, there was little early incentive to move beyond the simple policy decision that Canadian citizens could not accept knighthoods or similar British honours which granted aristocratic titles. British orders, decorations and medals continued to be used, including during wars, when Canadian contingents formed part of deployed British forces.

4. Limited steps towards creating Canadian military honours were taken in the middle of this century, beginning with a few unique medals during the Second World War.  After the war, a common medal for military long service and exemplary conduct, the Canadian Forces Decoration, was created to replace its several predecessors. This was followed by a special campaign medal for service in the Korean Conflict, a uniquely Canadian version of the Commonwealth's award issued at the behest of our government.

5. The watershed in the conversion to national honours occurred with the Centennial of Confederation in 1967. Initial awards created at that time were followed by a deliberate expansion of the Canadian honours system in 1972. Since then, practice,
experience and study have led to continued growth in the national system for recognizing the merit and deeds of those who serve Canada.

6. Accompanying this growth has been the development of commendations and like departmental awards emanating from the Chief of the Defence Staff to recognize activity beyond the demands of normal duty or of benefit to the CF or the country they serve.

As to which honours currently awarded that are uniquely Canadian vice those that perpetuate an “imperial” award, the following (somewhat edited) list from Appendix 1 to Annex A to the above reference may help in an explanation.  I’ve highlighted those that are now in the Canadian honours system and note with *** those which perpetuate a British honour.  A feature of the development of a Canadian  honours system was it's egalitarian nature, it doesn’t (usually) differentiate between officers and men, in contrast to the British system, e.g.  MC for officers, MM for men.  As British decorations for military valour were changed to remove differences for rank after the Canadian adoption of home-grown valour and bravery decorations, it might even be said they were following our lead.  There are also some similarities in the Australian development of their honours; they initially followed (to a degree) our example.

5. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1, 3 and 4, a person who, prior to June 1, 1972, was a member of a British order or the recipient of a British decoration or medal referred to in this section, may wear the insignia of the decoration or medal that the person is entitled to wear, the proper sequence being the following:

Victoria Cross (VC)  ***
George Cross (GC)
Cross of Valour (CV)
Order of Merit (OM)
Order of the Companions of Honour (CH)
Companion of the Order of Canada (CC)
Officer of the Order of Canada (OC)
Member of the Order of Canada (CM)
Commander of the Order of Military Merit (CMM)
Companion of the Order of the Bath (CB)
Companion of the Order of St. Michael and St.George (CMG)
Commander of the Royal Victorian Order (CVO) ***
Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE)
Distinguished Service Order (DSO)
Officer of the Order of Military Merit (OMM)
Lieutenant of the Royal Victoria Order (LVO) ***
Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE)
Imperial Service Order (ISO)
Member of the Order of Military Merit (MMM)
Member of the Royal Victorian Order (MVO)  ***
Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE)
Member of the Royal Red Cross (RRC)
Distinguished Service Cross (DSC)
Military Cross (MC)
Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC)
Air Force Cross (AFC)
Star of Military Valour (SMV)
Star of Courage (SC)
Meritorious Service Cross (MSC)
Medal of Military Valour (MMV)
Medal of Bravery (MB)
Meritorious Service Medal (MSM)
Associate of the Royal Red Cross (ARRC)
The Most Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem (all grades) ***
Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM)
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal (CGM)
George Medal (GM)
Distinguished Service Medal (DSM)
Military Medal (MM)
Distinguished Flying Medal (DFM)
Air Force Medal (AFM)
Queen's Gallantry Medal (QGM)
Royal Victorian Medal (RVM)  ***
British Empire Medal (BEM)

LONG SERVICE AND GOOD CONDUCT MEDALS
Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal
Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal
Air Force Long Service and Good Conduct Medal
Volunteer Officer's Decoration (VD)
Volunteer Long Service Medal
Colonial Auxiliary Forces Officer's Decoration (VD)
Colonial Auxiliary Forces Long Service Medal
Efficiency Decoration (ED)
Efficiency Medal
Naval Volunteer Reserve Decoration (VRD)
Naval Volunteer Reserve Long Service and Good Conduct Medal
Canadian Forces Decoration (CD)  (CD consolidated the long service medals which were often similiar to or common among the Commonwealth and was unique in that it did not differentiate between officer and man)

 
Excellent,

Now that was exactly what I needed to educate me.

Of the 20 that are still issued, only 6 perpetuated from a British honor.

That being said, only 30% derive from the British system.

I will concede, that I was wrong, and Canada's awards system is truly distinct.

Sorry for the uneducated tangent I took the thread into.

dileas

tess
 
New medal or not, if I get injured my wife will kill me.  ;D
 
Of the 20 that are still issued, only 6 perpetuated from a British honor.

I should point out that it's even less than that, depending on how you look at it.  The Royal Victorian Order (in all its four guises) is awarded (according to the Gov Gen's website) for personal service to the Soveriegn.  Hence, it is linked directly to the Royal Family, rather than the British crown...a small nuance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order

The Order of St John of Jerusalem is linked to that order and isn't a Canadian Crown award per se, although it is part of the honours system.  See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venerable_Order_of_Saint_John#The_Order_in_Canada

 
ModlrMike said:
New medal or not, if I get injured my wife will kill me.  ;D


... if she doesn't kill you, she'll never let you live it down, that's for sure... And I'm speaking from experience.  >:D



No medal is worth that kinda trouble... especially if you come home after only 3 weeks... (I'll never hear the end of it.)


... I'm not bitter.  Just disappointed.



 
Piper, better home after 3 weeks than the worst case scenario.

Cheers 
 
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