Rules on wearing individual uniform pieces outside of military events?

[Gayson]

I always thought that it was ok to wear DEU's, blues etc to fancy events such as weddings, operas, balls assuming that you have permission from the CO.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Mess dress is equivalent to white tie (otherwise known as an evening suit or dress suit: black tailcoat, pique-front shirt, white waistcoat, & of course a white tie).  However, since the mess is a more relaxed environment (save certain events) like a person's home, mess undress evolved as the formal dress black tie evolved.  This type of undress looses the medals, stiff shirt, waistcoat, & white tie for a soft shirt, cummerbund (esp in hotter areas), and a coloured (usu black which is ironically not a colour) tie probably because it's less maintenance to keep it clean.  The navy has a shipboard mess undress known as 'Red sea rig' which involves a cummerbund & short sleeved shirt with not even a nametag.  This was worn so that changing for dinner in the tropics didn't mean sweating to death in several layers.

Along with the loss of white tie in contemporary Western society (save a few conservative places), and its replacement with black tie, the military, in spite of it's conservativeness, has put black bow ties with the orders of mess dress.  The only expception being the high-collared army mess dress worn by some regiments (& I'm not getting mess dress confused with ceremonial dress, I know they both involve high collars).

Since mess dress is formal only in a mess or at an evening event, it is inappropriate during daylight or before 1800h (this last one's in dress instructions) just as are white & black tie.  Also, one ought not to wear it while on duty unless one's duty involves running some funtion in the mess. 

PS. Tuxedo=dinner suit=black tie.  The last being most appropriate & the first referring to Tuxedo park, NY where black tie was first worn in America.  And no one from Tuxedo calls black tie a tuxedo (essentially because they're snobs!).

 

[the 48th regulator]

Mess dress is equivalent to white tie (otherwise known as an evening suit or dress suit: black tailcoat, pique-front shirt, white waistcoat, & of course a white tie). However, since the mess is a more relaxed environment (save certain events) like a person's home, mess undress evolved as the formal dress black tie evolved. This type of undress looses the medals, stiff shirt, waistcoat, & white tie for a soft shirt, cummerbund (esp in hotter areas), and a coloured (usu black which is ironically not a colour) tie probably because it's less maintenance to keep it clean. The navy has a shipboard mess undress known as 'Red sea rig' which involves a cummerbund & short sleeved shirt with not even a nametag. This was worn so that changing for dinner in the tropics didn't mean sweating to death in several layers.

Along with the loss of white tie in contemporary Western society (save a few conservative places), and its replacement with black tie, the military, in spite of it's conservativeness, has put black bow ties with the orders of mess dress. The only expception being the high-collared army mess dress worn by some regiments (& I'm not getting mess dress confused with ceremonial dress, I know they both involve high collars).

Since mess dress is formal only in a mess or at an evening event, it is inappropriate during daylight or before 1800h (this last one's in dress instructions) just as are white & black tie. Also, one ought not to wear it while on duty unless one's duty involves running some funtion in the mess.

PS. Tuxedo=dinner suit=black tie. The last being most appropriate & the first referring to Tuxedo park, NY where black tie was first worn in America. And no one from Tuxedo calls black tie a tuxedo (essentially because they're snobs!).

That's exactly what I was looking for

Cheers Instructor

Quick question though, when you say the medals are lost, is that why we wear the miniatures instead of the full medals? As relaxed the tradition was it people still tried to keep the "pomP"?

again thanks mate for the info.

tess

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.  To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.  I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.  With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of all extras (dressings), save epaulettes.  I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.  The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face. 

 

[X Royal]

[quote author=Sailing Instructor]
Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.
[/quote]

As someone who has a couple medals maybe I can set you straight. Never has any government money been spent on any of my miniatures. These are bought at the members own expense. As for winning medals they are not generally a competition but usually awarded for services rendered or outstanding deeds.

Pro Patria

 

[Michael Dorosh]

They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....

 

[my72jeep]

Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.   I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.   With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of all extras (dressings), save epaulettes.   I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.   The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face.  

Full size medals on a mess kit now that looks ugly. and too many full size ones would be lost or gambled away in after mess dinner hijinks if we wore them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IIRC you still should ask the CO's permission. Even though mess dress isn't an uniform (because you bought it), it still is a military order of dress (No 2s, I think). It could still reflect badly on the CF, if you wore it inappropriately.

True with Getting the CO's Permission, but if someone was going to go through the trouble of throwing mess dress on, after spending over a grand (Much like ours ugh), just to wear it to an unappropriate function, I highly doubt they would bother to inform their CO.


My question would be what is deemed inappropriate, I have wondered that in the past when it was proper to wear mess dress. Is it considered simmiar to a tux in that it is considered black tie attire?

Just wondering. Because I agree if you spend that much, you kinda want tomake more use of it.

tess

Mess Kit without the Unit collar dogs or recognized rank is nothing more than a military style tux. Without those accoutrements you can do what you will with it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....

Michael,

We all know opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. From the amount of people who go out and purchase their own, I'd say there's enough that like them to keep the market very much alive. The same can be said for those that purchase Mess Kit, at their own expense. If they're satisfied, no need to deride them for there choice. It's normally the person who can't or won't spend the money, that come up with derisions to back their claim. That's my opinion anyway. I also have Mess Kit, miniatures and an asshole. ;D

 

[the 48th regulator]

They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....

whoa

They may look that way to you but I can assure you they don't feel that way, at least not to me.

Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.  To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.  I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.  With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of all extras (dressings), save epaulettes.  I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.  The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face. 

Aww man instructor you were on such a roll too.  Don't get ribbons and miniatures mixed up.  And tust me, to me, the ones I have earned don't look ugly at all....


tess

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Tess,

Here, Here. We know what we did for them, that's all that matters.

 

[my72jeep]

If I remember the rules Reg force officers have 6 months from commission date to get a mess kit. Reserve members it's optional.

 

[Eowyn]

If I remember the rules Reg force officers have 6 months from commission date to get a mess kit. Reserve members it's optional.

Some how I doubt that.  My Adjt, a Reg F Capt, doesn't have Mess Kit.  I'm sure he's been in the Regs for more than 6 months.

 

[Meridian]

When I was in the regs I was told it was optional as well.. most people wanted to get it anyway (used of course...)

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Aww man instructor you were on such a roll too.   Don't get ribbons and miniatures mixed up.   And tust me, to me, the ones I have earned don't look ugly at all....

No, don't worry, I'm not getting undress ribbons, medals, & miniature medals mixed up.  Yes, after I wrote that bit about Crown money being wasted on miniatures, I thought that they are probably a private purchase & it makes sense since you only have to wear them with a privately purchased uniform.  Still, I stand by my opinion that they look costumey (are they even metal?).  When did minis come about anyway?  I just don't get why it's important to have two versions of the same thing--undress ribbons I can see the point of, they are slightly less 'in the way' for everyday wear.  

Sorry, I didn't mean one 'wins' medals in the competition sense of the word.  I should have said 'awarded.'  Just a question though: should I be awarded a medal, am I obliged to buy the miniatures for mess dress?  Or can one just leave their jacket blank (or will this result in as much of a penalty at mess dinners as wearing the real medals)?

As for the 6 month from commission time to get mess dress, it is written in dress instructions.  But there may have been a CANFORGEN saying otherwise since that was written.  

 

[1feral1]

Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.  

Hey SI:

As per X Royal's post on page 2, minature medals in the CF are purchased privately, and are worn on mess kit (which you have the privillage to wear from the rank of Sergeant on up), which is also private purchase.

Awards and decorations are earned not only from time in rank, but for recognition of operational/active service, and there is nothing 'ugly' or a 'waste of tax payers money' about that.

Its a custom and tradition which has been around for a very long time, and after serving almost 29 years in two different armies, this is the first time I have ever heard such foolishness of any medals benig 'ugly' or a 'waste of money' coming from the mouth of a serving CF member, or any serving member from any military force.

I just have two medals, and no matter what the size, or what they are for, both myself and my family are proud of them.

Australian medals come with a minature, and mess kit is issued from Sergeant on up. No one here (that I know) thinks either are a waste of money.

Below is a pic of myself and the 'rebel woman' I live with taken at a 'mixed' dining in night in our Mess. Yes I have my CF minatures on my Aussie issue Mess Kit, as I am proud of my service to Canada, even though I live in another country, serving in another Army.

Shaking head,

Wes

Take the time to think before you post.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I reiterate that the miniature medals look goofy; I certainly wasn't passing judgement of the full size ones.  Perhaps a full rack of medals in miniature look okay; anything fewer than 4 look like something MIchael Jackson would wear to a pajama party.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Having read up on Ch4 of dress instructions, miniatures seem to be for evening dress (even civilian white & black tie) & medals are for daytime dress.  I think this may stem from the 19th century ideal that evening dress is to be uncluttered (which is why it is black & white, etc.). 

Still, I'd rather have medals cluttering up my unform than miniatures.  I stand by the statement that miniatures are ugly.  Thankfully the wear of awards is optional.

 

[OLD F of S]

          Sailing Instructor, I have attended formal balls at overseas locations most nations wear
miniture medals, I can tell you for sure at these balls if I didn't wear them the RSM would have had mine.


                      Regards OLD F of S

 

[1feral1]

  Thankfully the wear of awards is optional.

Speaking of minatures with mess kit only. Full sized medals are not authorised to be worn with such. There is usually an instruction put out by the RSM (for Mess dinners, dining in nights and other events) on what is to be worn, and with what medals. Failure to comply to a written instruction is an offence, and failure to read and/or ingorance is no excuse

Let me assure you son, awards are not optional to wear if the dress is 'mess kit' As per the above post about the RSM after ya, he truly would be, (what mesage would you be sending to your peers, subordinates, and superiours) and if you didnt have them on the next time, you'd be in for a charge of disobeying an order). An exception of the rule would be if you had recently received a medal, and the minature was not purchased yet.

Besides, anyone of any rank and authority, regardless about what their personal opinion would wear them regardless. I have yet to see any serving member of any force refuse to wear their medals, regardless of their size.

Since, you are only 19, and not near the rank of having mess kit anyways, I guess its no problem, but with an attitude like you have I am sure you'll go a long way in your career.