Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general

[Jarnhamar]

Those of you with far more deployment and army experience than I:

With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?

I think MCG nailed it.

I can see less "combat operations" and more highly visual, touchy feely tasks which make for great photo-ops. (not the "touchy feely" stuff the UN is known for mind you).
I suspect the PAFOs will be run ragged.

 

[ballz]

Again, common sense.  But the reality is, no government (Lib or CPC) knows or cares about our managed readiness cycle;  notwithstanding any assumed CDS advice it's nothing more than a photo op,  a poker chip for a UN bid, and a "Canada's Back" election slogan.

The managed readiness plan has been nothing but a burn-out for all those who have to be a part of it, and with no level of actual operational readiness to show for it. When you combine tasks like NEO, IRU, etc, 2 RCR came back from Op ATTENTION in December 2012 and I have essentially been on high-readiness, or on the road to high-readiness since July 1st 2013 and I am not an anomaly by any stretch of the imagination.

I blame the fact that they insist on having a Brigade on high readiness, so its a 3-year cycle instead of a 9-year cycle to keep a Battle Group at high-readiness (something that is actually realistic and could actually be manned).

My years since arriving at 2 RCR in Dec 2012 have been... July 2013 Road to High-readiness, July 2014 on high-readiness (TF 1-14) while simultaneously doing high-readiness training for NEO, July 2015 on high-readiness for NEO, and now July 2016 Road to High-readiness for TF 1-17 which will take me to July 2018. 5 full years of a death-con 10 op tempo. Thanks for working a rest cycle into the "managed" readiness program, Canadian Army!

 

[Kirkhill]

Matthew Fisher indicates his read of political messaging as indicating that Canada will deploy specifically into French West Africa.  He also indicates that "Ottawa has been keen to begin that mission with French-speaking troops" but I don't know where this idea comes from, except maybe rumour mill.

As noted in the article, a deployment from 5 brigade would deprive those units of their rest cycle in managed readiness, and it would waste economies of using the units already in high readiness from 1 brigade.  There would still be plenty of Francophone soldiers deployed as, at least outside of manoeuvre arms, there are Francophone soldiers throughout the brigade units.  And our government has expended significant funds investing in French language skills for English soldiers, so we may as well seek some operational return from that investment.http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/matthew-fisher-despite-the-potentical-complications-all-signs-point-to-canada-sending-troops-to-africa

From Matthew Fishers article quoted:

Given that the Trudeau government intends to keep Canadian Forces in Africa for many years and that those troops will require scores of heavy armoured personnel carriers, weapons, a field hospital and helicopters, something to look for soon may be an announcement Canada intends to establish a regional logistics hub, most likely in the Senegalese port of Dakar. It would be something akin to the ones that already exist in Kuwait and Cologne.

Operational Support Hubs

Canadian imperialism extends its reach around the globe

In addition to the base in Kuwait, the Department of National Defense announced at the beginning of June that the CAF has already reached agreements to open military bases in Germany and Jamaica. The CAF has also indicated its interest in pursuing bases in Senegal (ie Dakar) in West Africa, Kenya (ie Mombasa) or Tanzania in East Africa, South Korea (ie Busan), and Singapore.

Situated in countries of critical geo-strategic importance, the “Support Hubs” will serve as “trampolines” for deploying troops and material in future CAF missions.
In confirming the CAF’s intention to set in place the Support Hub Network, Lieutenant John Nethercott underscored that Canada’s military is seeking to develop the capacity to rapidly intervene around the world. The CAF, he said, “doesn’t have a crystal ball” as to where it will be called upon to take action.

Accordingly, the CAF plans to locate military bases at geo-political flashpoints and areas of importance for Canadian imperialism

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/07/cana-j14.html

Evil Harper imperialism or Sunny UN support net?

 

[vonGarvin]

I recommend it for those who wish to understand further how gender and diversity must be considered in every facet of the work we do.

Meanwhile, in Russia, the infantry division that did this:

.


The 150th Infantry Division (Destroyed in 1941, reformed and destroyed in 1942 and finally reformed in 1943 and fought across into Berlin, hoisting the USSR banner in the picture above before being disbanded in 1946) has been reformed in 2016 in the Donbas region of Russia. 



Why is that important?  From an article here:

The unit will materialize in late 2017 and resume the legacy of the 150th Idritsk-Berlin Division from World War II. That bit of historical trivia is not inconsequential, because it was the 150th that raised the flag over the Reichstag in 1945. The symbolism of establishing such a unit with such a prominent legacy of defeating fascism on Ukraine’s flank is doubtfully a coincidence.

 

[daftandbarmy]

"Out of Africa, always something new'

Pliny the Elder

 

[Altair]

Meanwhile, in Russia, the infantry division that did this:

.


The 150th Infantry Division (Destroyed in 1941, reformed and destroyed in 1942 and finally reformed in 1943 and fought across into Berlin, hoisting the USSR banner in the picture above before being disbanded in 1946) has been reformed in 2016 in the Donbas region of Russia. 



Why is that important?  From an article here:

So it's due to be destroyed twice more eh?

 

[vonGarvin]

So it's due to be destroyed twice more eh?

By whom? Us*? Not bloody likely.

*Us=The West.

 

[Eland2]

Those of you with far more deployment and army experience than I:

With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?

It's been a long time since I've been in as a reservist, but making a very wild-ass, non-professional guess based on the tooth-to-tail ratio that seems to exist now, I would daresay we wouldn't be able to deploy more than a company-sized formation for anything resembling combat operations. Two companies might be a stretch, or somewhat feasible, depending on operational taskings and tempo.

Even then, such numbers are too few to permit full-scale combat operations. A force that size could probably handle force protection, with limited numbers hived off to conduct site recces and route-proving patrols if the main body needs to move to a different location.

One problem is that the proposed deployment is intended to conduct some sort of peacekeeping operation in Africa. That is, in an environment where a Rwanda-type situation could erupt with little to no warning, and where trying to conduct combat operations while vastly outnumbered by either side of the conflict could result in large numbers of casualties and inability to meet your objectives.

When conducting peacekeeping operations with limited numbers and resources, your aim is not to make the peace, but to de-escalate situations wherever and whenever possible, and shoot back only when you have absolutely no other options.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's been a long time since I've been in as a reservist, but making a very wild-***, non-professional guess based on the tooth-to-tail ratio that seems to exist now, I would daresay we wouldn't be able to deploy more than a company-sized formation for anything resembling combat operations. Two companies might be a stretch, or somewhat feasible, depending on operational taskings and tempo.

Even then, such numbers are too few to permit full-scale combat operations. A force that size could probably handle force protection, with limited numbers hived off to conduct site recces and route-proving patrols if the main body needs to move to a different location.

One problem is that the proposed deployment is intended to conduct some sort of peacekeeping operation in Africa. That is, in an environment where a Rwanda-type situation could erupt with little to no warning, and where trying to conduct combat operations while vastly outnumbered by either side of the conflict could result in large numbers of casualties and inability to meet your objectives.

When conducting peacekeeping operations with limited numbers and resources, your aim is not to make the peace, but to de-escalate situations wherever and whenever possible, and shoot back only when you have absolutely no other options.

I'm sure we have enough people to participate in this although, it's clear, our vehicles and communications will be outclassed:

The Dakar Rally (or simply "The Dakar"; formerly known as the "Paris–Dakar Rally") is an annual rally raid organised by the Amaury Sport Organisation. Most events since the inception in 1978 were from Paris, France, to Dakar, Senegal, but due to security threats in Mauritania, which led to the cancellation of the 2008 rally, races since 2009 have been held in South America.[1][2][3] The race is open to amateur and professional entries, amateurs typically making up about eighty percent of the participants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar_Rally

 

[McG]

Seems a multi-department recce has been launched to Mali.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-sends-fact-finding-mission-to-mali-to-study-peacekeeping-operations/article31641823/

 

[Kirkhill]

Funny to a reprobate like me.  Timbuktu used to be used as a synonym for the back of beyond, or the arse end of the universe.  Timbuktu is in Mali and it is 1600 km by air from Dakar.

 

[dapaterson]

Funny to a reprobate like me.  Timbuktu used to be used as a synonym for the back of beyond, or the arse end of the universe.  Timbuktu is in Mali and it is 1600 km by air from Dakar.

Sort of like driving from Battleford SK to Thunder Bay ON.  In several ways...

 

[GK .Dundas]

Sort of like driving from Battleford SK to Thunder Bay ON.  In several ways...

Only if you take the Yellowhead Route.

 

[Kirkhill]

True enough DAP.  Except that I have a son currently in Thunder Bay and I understand there is a decent baker in town. 

In other words: I have a reason to make the trip.

 

[dapaterson]

But why are you in Battleford?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Seems a multi-department recce has been launched to Mali.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-sends-fact-finding-mission-to-mali-to-study-peacekeeping-operations/article31641823/

"....Those dangers may cause some Canadians to shy away from Mali."

You know, if the people of Canada really are the pussies and wimps that the media makes them out to be, that should by no means influence or reflect upon the determination of the armed forces to do whatever job the government orders them to do, and smartly with 3 bags full. While I continue to question the need to engage with any peace support missions whatsoever with the UN in Africa, because frankly the place is of no relevance to the problems we have at home and on our northern borders, I refuse to accept by any measure that the armed forces should be afraid, just because the Grey Goose is. As a citizen, I am willing to allow the government to expend and sacrifice as much of the shirking HQ bloat as they possibly can on these particular endeavours, and I expect them to go bravely and without question. In fact, I wish Trudeau was demanding that Canada be tasked with "commanding" as many of these missions as possible, and strike to metal all the meaningless gongs that will go to them.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Thinking out loud, 600 is not a very large number of troops to be able to do anything very military that might actually involve confronting bad guys. There has been lots of talk/speculation about nation building and civil involvement and humanitarian work, but that may just be wishful thinking about the "good old days" of peacekeeping. Surely somebody hasn't hauled out the concept of three block war that was all in the vogue circa 2005.

What have I missed?

Hal Moore started out with less than 600 at Ia Drang...

 

[dimsum]

In fact, I wish Trudeau was demanding that Canada be tasked with "commanding" as many of these missions as possible, and strike to metal all the meaningless gongs that will go to them.

If it's a UN mission, then it'd just be one of the UN Medals already authorized, no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Medal

Side note:  There's a medal for working at UNHQ New York.  Imagine the "war stories" from there.

 

[Kirkhill]

But why are you in Battleford?

Passing through.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hal Moore started out with less than 600 at Ia Drang...

With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.