ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]

[Calvillo]

Keep in mind that ROTP in Canada meansRegularOfficer Training Program and that ROTC in the US stands for Reserve Officer Training Corps.  Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces, they remain Reserve officers which has certain implications with regard to career progression and even job security.  Virtually , the only way to get a regular commission in the US Armed Forces is through the service academies and I think, maybe, The Citadel and VMI.  Although ROTC and ROTP appear similar in many ways, in many others they are quite different.

Beg pardon sir, but your information regarding ROTC graduates is incorrect. ROTC graduates are required to serve a number of year as an active duty officer. In the U.S. military if I am not mistaken 'active duty' means working for the military full time. For example Naval Officers graduates from NROTC are required to serve 5 years of active military service.

http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/military_requirements.html

As such, ROTC graduates have the same opportunities as service academies graduates and many high-ranking officers come from ROTC. Current active O-10s who graduate from ROTC include Gen Dunford (CJCS), GEN Milley (CSA), Gen Wilson (VCSAF) and ADM Grady (COMUSFF).

 

[Pusser]

Beg pardon sir, but your information regarding ROTC graduates is incorrect. ROTC graduates are required to serve a number of year as an active duty officer. In the U.S. military if I am not mistaken 'active duty' means working for the military full time. For example Naval Officers graduates from NROTC are required to serve 5 years of active military service.

http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/military_requirements.html

As such, ROTC graduates have the same opportunities as service academies graduates and many high-ranking officers come from ROTC. Current active O-10s who graduate from ROTC include Gen Dunford (CJCS), GEN Milley (CSA), Gen Wilson (VCSAF) and ADM Grady (COMUSFF).

Did you miss the part where I said, "Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces,...?"  Being on full time active service doesn't mean they're not Reserve officers.  We have Reserve officers in the Canadian Forces who have effectively completed full careers on full time service as well.  This doesn't change anything or make what I said inaccurate.  My point, however, is that notwithstanding being on full time service, being a Reserve officer in either the Canadian or American Armed Forces, has certain implications that can affect pay, pensions and job security.  Having worked with a number of Americans in international HQs, I've actually had a chance to talk to a number of them.  When the US Armed Forces were downsized a number of years ago, the Reserve officers (e.g. ROTC/NROTC) were the first to be involuntarily let go, while the jobs of those with regular commissions (i.e. from the service academies) were relatively secure.

Having said all of this, it doesn't really matter in this case because we're really only talking about what is available in Canada.  Although ROTP (Civy U) and ROTC may look similar on the surface, they are actually quite different.  A better Canadian comparison to ROTC would be a university student who joins a Reserve unit while attending school and takes advantage of the education programs offered through the Canadian Forces Reserve.  However, even that is fundamentally different from ROTC in that the school has nothing to do with the program.  The school provides no instruction, coordination or even a venue for training.

 

[Calvillo]

Did you miss the part where I said, "Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces,...?"  Being on full time active service doesn't mean they're not Reserve officers.  We have Reserve officers in the Canadian Forces who have effectively completed full careers on full time service as well.  This doesn't change anything or make what I said inaccurate.  My point, however, is that notwithstanding being on full time service, being a Reserve officer in either the Canadian or American Armed Forces, has certain implications that can affect pay, pensions and job security.  Having worked with a number of Americans in international HQs, I've actually had a chance to talk to a number of them.  When the US Armed Forces were downsized a number of years ago, the Reserve officers (e.g. ROTC/NROTC) were the first to be involuntarily let go, while the jobs of those with regular commissions (i.e. from the service academies) were relatively secure.

Having said all of this, it doesn't really matter in this case because we're really only talking about what is available in Canada.  Although ROTP (Civy U) and ROTC may look similar on the surface, they are actually quite different.  A better Canadian comparison to ROTC would be a university student who joins a Reserve unit while attending school and takes advantage of the education programs offered through the Canadian Forces Reserve.  However, even that is fundamentally different from ROTC in that the school has nothing to do with the program.  The school provides no instruction, coordination or even a venue for training.

Very well sir, thank you for your information. I am more enlightened now on what options my son can or can not choose.

 

[Shrinjay]

So what this post is telling me is I'm going to have to give them a damn good reason why I should be able to go to a civi u? I read somewhere that you need to submit an essay, is this true?

 

[Pusser]

So what this post is telling me is I'm going to have to give them a damn good reason why I should be able to go to a civi u? I read somewhere that you need to submit an essay, is this true?

If you're not going into a program that simply isn't offered at RMC, I wouldn't bother.  Trying to tell the system that you don't feel the premier route into the system is good enough (or that you're to good for it), isn't exactly setting yourself up for selection.

When I applied, I made it clear that I wanted to go to RMC, even if it meant doing an extra year (I already had one year completed at Civy U).  They left me at the Civy U.  A friend of mine essentially told them that RMC's program wasn't as good as the one he was enrolled in at a Civy U.  He's remained a civilian his entire working life.  I'm retiring next year.  He's not.

 

[Shrinjay]

Right, that's interesting. I don't want to tell the system that obviously, and I want to have a good chance for selection, but is there really that little chance of being able to go to civi u for engineering? If I mention I'm open to going to civi u instead of RMC would that impact my selection?

 

[Schwartzie55]

I did some research and spoke to my RC about exactly what you’re asking. All engineering is at RMC. Unless you are already enrolled in that program at civi u they may leave you there but most likely they would move you to RMC. You have very little chance of going there instead of RMC. The demand for engineers by the CF has to exceed capacity at RMC and it rarely does as engineering is the primary focus of the College. 41% if graduates are engineering.

 

[Shrinjay]

I did some research and spoke to my RC about exactly what you’re asking. All engineering is at RMC. Unless you are already enrolled in that program at civi u they may leave you there but most likely they would move you to RMC. You have very little chance of going there instead of RMC. The demand for engineers by the CF has to exceed capacity at RMC and it rarely does as engineering is the primary focus of the College. 41% if graduates are engineering.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the information!

 

[Pusser]

Right, that's interesting. I don't want to tell the system that obviously, and I want to have a good chance for selection, but is there really that little chance of being able to go to civi u for engineering? If I mention I'm open to going to civi u instead of RMC would that impact my selection?

Expressing a willingness to go to civi U for Engineering should not hurt your chances for selection.  Remember though that an ROTP application is an application for enrollment as an officer in the CAF and even though the CAF wants you to have a degree, that's actually kind of secondary.  First you get accepted into the program, then we decide where you go for this step. 

Do not put all your eggs in one basket.  Make sure you apply to civilian universities as well.  If you're not accepted into ROTP the first year, there is still a possibility you can get picked up in later years (where your chances of remaining at the civi U are really quite good).

 

[Vitech]

I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

 

[Pusser]

I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

The Recruiting Centre is always your best source of information.  I'm not a recruiter and my experience in this regard is decades old.  However, as a general rule, we like to get personnel through basic training as soon as we can.  Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed.

In terms of funding your subsidized education, we work in fiscal years (1 Apr - 31 Mar).  Therefore, the likelihood of funding you for a semester is low.  If there is sufficient funding available for FY 18/19, there is a possibility you could be reimbursed for classes starting in Sep 18; however, that only happens if we didn't recruit enough last year and I'm not sure that ever happens for ROTP candidates (it's more likely with medical and dental applicants).  The most likely scenario is that you would be picked up for subsidization starting in Sep 19.

 

[stoker dave]

Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

While others have addressed this, please let me chime in.

I am an RMC engineering graduate.  I served for a number of years and have been practicing as an engineer in the civilian world for decades. 

You are correct that, academically, RMC is not on par with the best of Canada's universities.  But, as others have indicated,  that is not the point.  It provides a very good education, along with a huge number of other skills and experiences that no other university can provide. 

For anyone's future, it is necessary to balance whether you want to go to a top academic university or the more rounded experience (with associated preparation for a career as a military officer).  Only the applicant can make that choice. 

As a practicing engineer and manager, I make hiring decisions.  I don't always want the smartest person (or the person from the "best" university) but the guy (or girl) that can be relied upon to show up on time, with the right kit, get along with others, take responsibility for their work, write a coherent report and solve problems on their own.  I think RMC does a pretty good job at developing individuals with those skills and characteristics. 

 

[kratz]

[quote author=stoker dave]
As a practicing engineer and manager, I make hiring decisions.  I don't always want the smartest person (or the person from the "best" university) but the guy (or girl) that can be relied upon to show up on time, with the right kit, get along with others, take responsibility for their work, write a coherent report and solve problems on their own. I think RMC does a pretty good job at developing individuals with those skills and characteristics.
[/quote]

Soft skills are gradually beginning to become more valuable than many qualifications people hold. Being "book smart" and unable to adequately function in the workplace is as much a poor hire as someone unqualified.

 

[Vitech]

Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed

Yes that is what I was expecting. It seems to me that BMOQ would be the easiest part of ROTP, and I would wager that caf has wasted more money on people who could not get passing grades in university than they have on those who failed BMOQ. It was also my understanding that failing the ROTP program will result in being required to pay back the funding, so there is little risk to caf in this case.

A better question is why, after finishing my degree,  why wouldn’t I want to work from home making 50% more than a  DEO signals officer. Maybe I would still want to out of pride, but caf is taking the risk that I might find a civilian job that I would enjoy. I suspect that the majority of DEO are coming from the bottom of their graduating class, and have a hard time finding a six figure salary like their peers. Recruiting needs to rethink their strategy if they really want to be hiring the best.

 

[stoker dave]

Recruiting needs to rethink their strategy if they really want to be hiring the best.

Well, Vitech, I am going to assume you are young and naive.  So we should all cut you some slack.  But your arrogance is bit off-putting.

Here's a thought; it relates to the Navy because that is my background but I am sure there are parallels elsewhere. 

It's 4:00 am.  You are the engineering officer of a ship.  You haven't slept well in four days.  The ship is 1,000 miles from land and has been at sea for the past 23 days.  All kinds of old, crapped-out equipment and machinery is failing.  The captain is mad at the restrictions due to unavailability of some key systems.  The executive officer calls for an update every 20 mins on ongoing repairs.  The chief of the engineering department is mad because everyone is working crazy hours and getting no sleep.  The supply department can't get you spares you need.  You have a ton of paperwork that has been neglected.  And your wife is sick and your kids are doing poorly in school and there is nothing you can do about that while at sea. 

Now, who is the 'best' qualified person for this job?  The guy that went to the 'best' school?  Or the guy that can keep it together and do what needs doing? 

 

[Vitech]

What exactly is your point, that parents are less qualified because they potentially have more things to worry about? That is a hell of a generalization to make about how someone performs under pressure. My point is that, parent or not, the top graduates will have the most opportunity and in IT Canadian forces aren’t competitive with industry pay. That means that caf will get the bottom of the graduating class, if they are lucky. If caf wants any shot at getting the best people they need to bend over backwards to sign them up before they get an offer from the civilian world. Do you want the best hackers working for caf or should they be vigilantes and free lancers?

An A student / parent might perform at a B or C level when under the stress you described, but a C student might perform at a D or F grade level under the same stress minus parental concerns. It’s hard to generalize about people but there is no reason to think someone with kids isn’t going to outperform someone without. As a parent I likely possess experience, wisdom, and skills that a single person probably wouldn’t understand. Multitasking under pressure is part of being a parent.

 

[kratz]

Nobody mentioned parents being anything. You took offense.

Many CAF positions are not competitive with their respective industry. This has been a fact for decades, it's not a new phenomenon.
The assertion the majority of DEO applications are bottom of the class is based on assumptions, not back by any facts.
There are other benefits, aside from pay, many CAF members find more attractive than six figures.

Successful HR required at least a 8:1 ratio. Current CAF recruiting more than meets this standard. This allows to be quit selective on who is  accepted into highly competitive trades. Anyone can apply to the CAF, but nobody is guaranteed a job with the military.

 

[Pusser]

What exactly is your point, that parents are less qualified because they potentially have more things to worry about? That is a hell of a generalization to make about how someone performs under pressure. My point is that, parent or not, the top graduates will have the most opportunity and in IT Canadian forces aren’t competitive with industry pay. That means that caf will get the bottom of the graduating class, if they are lucky. If caf wants any shot at getting the best people they need to bend over backwards to sign them up before they get an offer from the civilian world. Do you want the best hackers working for caf or should they be vigilantes and free lancers?

An A student / parent might perform at a B or C level when under the stress you described, but a C student might perform at a D or F grade level under the same stress minus parental concerns. It’s hard to generalize about people but there is no reason to think someone with kids isn’t going to outperform someone without. As a parent I likely possess experience, wisdom, and skills that a single person probably wouldn’t understand. Multitasking under pressure is part of being a parent.

Wow!  Did you ever read a lot into Stoker Dave's comment.

Whether someone is a parent or not was NOT his point.  There are many parents in the CAF, across all ranks and occupations.  We deal with it.  The point, however, here is that there are pressures placed on CAF members due to the unique nature of what we do, including parental pressures that are exacerbated by separation.  Pressures that do not necessarily have any parallel in the civilian world. Pressures that being the "top" student at the "best" school won't help you with.  Being the brightest and the best is not necessarily what we're looking for and for that matter, the "top" student is not always the best or the brightest.  We don't need somebody to design the most efficient gas turbine engine in the history of mankind.  We need somebody who can get the one we have operating during a hurricane when we're dead in the water, with no outside support and no spare parts.

Basic training is not perfect, but it at least gives us an indication of how someone performs under pressure with minimal sleep and an irregular schedule.  If you have difficulty performing in a controlled environment with little danger, you're probably not going to do well when the stakes are higher.  This is why we want to do it the beginning in an effort to weed out the unsuitable before we invest in the really expensive training.  As I said before, it's not an especially difficult course, if you have the aptitude for it, but it is not especially easy either.  You have to do more than just show up.  I've seen some of the "best and brightest" from the "best" schools do miserably and even fail BMOQ.  Academic achievement is not necessarily a good indicator of success in military operations.

Being the "best and brightest" in the military is a combination of things beyond marks in the classroom.

 

[Schwartzie55]

Couldn’t have been said any better.

 

[da1root]

I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

The Recruiting Centre is always your best source of information.  I'm not a recruiter and my experience in this regard is decades old.  However, as a general rule, we like to get personnel through basic training as soon as we can.  Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed.

In terms of funding your subsidized education, we work in fiscal years (1 Apr - 31 Mar).  Therefore, the likelihood of funding you for a semester is low.  If there is sufficient funding available for FY 18/19, there is a possibility you could be reimbursed for classes starting in Sep 18; however, that only happens if we didn't recruit enough last year and I'm not sure that ever happens for ROTP candidates (it's more likely with medical and dental applicants).  The most likely scenario is that you would be picked up for subsidization starting in Sep 19.

Sorry for the late jump in here, but to expand a little bit.
It's a requirement to do BMOQ your first "summer" in the CAF; be that prior to starting school or between the 1st and 2nd years that the CAF pays for.  If you do not attend BMOQ within that timing a Progress Review Board will be convened to determine if you can stay in ROTP.

As for the start of January 2019 - to do that you will need to enroll in the FY18/19 intake.  FY18/19 for ROTP is complete and closed - the CAF has started work on opening the FY19/20 campaign to enroll individuals for the September 2019 school year (doing BMOQ over Summer 2019).