Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[vangemeren]

Different enrollment requirements and criteria to be met to qualify for enrollment, different enrollment contract, different pension plan, whole different manner of processing the paperwork through the system ...

just to name a few major differences.

You need to decide: Commissioned or Non-Commissioned. Two totally different beasts, process' and requirements.

I made the decision on the spot, I just god rid of my third choice. The SGT didn't give me a reason, but I figured that it had something to do with that, Thanks Vern.

 

[Goose]

Hey everyone... I'm relatively new to the forum and have never posted before, so bare with me. I've got a few questions that I'd like some help with, if anyone's got the time and/or answers. (I've searched the forums for the info. that I want, and haven't found anything particularly relevant...) Anyways, here's my scenario; I have a bachelors with a double major, and had been accepted into the forces as a med tech. However, I cancelled the process because during my interview I had told the recruiter that I wasn't going to go anywhere until april (after my graduation) and they had sent in the paperwork early anyways. Well, now I'm almost done the school thing, and am taking a step back to re-evaluate my options- just to make sure that I've made the best decision possible. I have a passion for being a pilot, but am very aware of the chances of getting accepted (less than 5%)  and also for SAR tech for which the medic thing would be a big help (I seem to have a knack for the impossible). However, I've got this degree, and don't know if I want to bypass the opportunity to be an officer (though, i know, i can transfer over in a few years). I'm a very hands-on person, and I dont know if an officers position is going to be enough 'down-and-in-it' for me. I guess what this is all asking is if I should go straight to officer or take my time and get some NCM experience under my belt first. I've got to re-write my aptitude test in order to do the officer route too (I scored one point under the requirement, go figure). Is it worth it? are the lifestyles really that different? are NCM"s really treated that bad? (I'm very much a 'why' person, and don't take orders particularly well- but could if I had too). Thanks everyone, sorry for starting a new topic for this, it would just be nice to have something directly applicable to myself.

 

[benny88]

    There are people far more knowledgable people here who have NCM and Officer experience who will be able to help you out. My only point is: if you have a passion for being a pilot, don't let (your perceived) odds stand in your way. Nothing to lose by trying, and if you don't at least try you may regret it.



Edit: Welcome to Army.ca!

 

[Michael OLeary]

Goose,

we can't make that decision for you.  There's plenty of threads here that discuss the differences between officer and NCM programs, but only you can evaluate that information in relation to your own desires.

See the recruiting FAQ~ here to start with - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103985.html#msg103985

Firstly, you need to pass that CFAT with a score making you eligible for officer training, and whatever score you get will dictate what trades are open to you (as either an officer or NCM).

And one more thing, don't generalize such things as this, it only invites unnecessary tangents:

  are NCM"s really treated that bad?

For all other respondents, stick to the purpose of the thread.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Goose]

Thanks for the replies, I really do appreciate them. I understand that this decision is ultimately mine, and that I am the one that is going to have to live with it. Just to clarify, the aptitude mark for officer won't be a big deal- so the only think I am really wondering about would be where someone that is interested in the hands-on training should go. Basically, are there any comissioned jobs in the CF that are close to the intensity of the NCM world (like a pilot would be). also, is it a big issue to transfer to an officer after I put a few years under my belt as an NCM? that way, I suppose I could get the best of both worlds, and do my best to give SAR tech a shot.

 

[Good2Golf]

Goose, are you looking for any particular type of challenge, or just something that involves lots of activity or hands on? Would you want to use your degree at least in part in what you would want to do?  SAR Tech would certainly be a rewarding challenge.  If you do a search for "SAR Tech" you will find a number of posts related to the new direct entry process for SAR Techs. Up until recently, the SAR Tech trade was only accessible through remustering from another trade.  You will see information from some of our resident experts -- kjgully is one of the go to guys here for all things SAR Tech.  Best of luck in your efforts.

G2G

 

[dimsum]

Basically, are there any comissioned jobs in the CF that are close to the intensity of the NCM world (like a pilot would be). also, is it a big issue to transfer to an officer after I put a few years under my belt as an NCM?

While most of the intensity is less physical and more mental, there are certainly stressful officer occupations.  Combat Arms and MARS (MARS 4 and the Fleet Navigating Officer course can be quite intense!), just to name a few.  Not completely in my lane, but I'm sure some would say that AEC can certainly be intense. 

 

[Goose]

well- I think i've got it figured out- infantry officer- seems to fit the criteria for exactally what I want... question, are their many female infantry officers? and what is the requirement on the CFAT for this position? I'm writing it in a few weeks- was one point short of officer last time I took a shot at it, but honestly, I haden't prepared at all for it...

 

[dangerboy]

well- I think i've got it figured out- infantry officer- seems to fit the criteria for exactally what I want... question, are their many female infantry officers?

There are not many female Infantry officers, but then there are also not many female infantry NCMs either, but don't let that be a deciding factor in your choice.

 

[benny88]

There are not many female Infantry officers, but then there are also not many female infantry NCMs either, but don't let that be a deciding factor in your choice.

  On my 13 km march last summer, out of 52 OCdts, two fell out, and neither of them were women, of which we had 7 or 8. The two who fell out were perfectly capable of walking the 13km, but soft, and some of the people who stayed in were less than 110 lbs and carrying more than half their body weight. It's all in your head.

 

[RetiredRoyal]

my opinion based on my 14yrs as an NCM both in the Infantry and Air Force. If it was my son/daughter I'd counsel them to  become an officer. Officers have a far better life in the military. All the way from general pay and gratuities to sleeping conditions in the field and attendance on parade and drill. Life as an officer is good.

 

[Goose]

thanks a ton. I'm definately (CFAT willing) going to DEO for infantry or armour... suppose that means I should hit the gym... :-\ thanks again- real, 'been there' perspective is just what I was looking for.

 

[kincanucks]

Officers have a far better life in the military.          ...........to sleeping conditions in the field

Excuse me?

 

[armyvern]

Officers have a far better life in the military.           ...........to sleeping conditions in the field

Excuse me?

Especially given that his 14 years were as a NCM ... and none as an officer. I guess it's simply his perception of how good the Officer Corps must have it compared to him. It's certainly not experience as an Officer speaking.

Here's my perception on Officers ...

Our Officers slept in the same conditions in the field that we did. Rain, snow, sleet, hail. Hooches etc. Even lost to me playing chiclet poker and were relegated to the shitty stove-watchs while I (and other NCMs) snugged up in my bag nice and warm in my flannels. And, it is some bitch to have to go out and refill the naptha at -35, spark up the immersion heaters etc ... and ...

Higher pay? Sure, they are a higher rank. Some NCMs get higher pay than other NCMs ... because they are higher rank levels too. Funny how that works.  Better perks? Sure ... some NCMs go to different Mess', get to write less PERs, are relegated to "mandatory attendance at coffee breaks" (RSM hours), dig trenchs less & less, cam vehicles less and less, do manual labour less & less ... the list could go on ...

 

[medaid]

Different sleeping conditions he says? Wow... I wish that be true! Yarr. I work on the EHIBS along side of our Bos'ns. I get rained on hailed on and snowed on just like they do. Maybe not as often as they do, but I still do. I rucked along side of my troops, set up the same facilities, and stood the same shifts or watches as they do. You have to see it this way. SNCOs and Snr O types do different jobs then thei subordinates. Even in the civie world management has a different role then the work force. Both has its perks and its down side. Officer down side? So much paper work!!

 

[Shamrock]

In the troop leader's crew, I often laid out the troopie's sleeping kit and packed it up for them.  This wasn't out of any sense of undue loyalty or even because I particularly liked them -- this was because they'd often return from orders, etc. a few hours after the rest of us had gone to sleep on the back deck and had to get up before the rest of us and I didn't want them waking the rest of the crew fumbling around with their sleeping kit.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I'll throw my two cents in from a career officer's POV - such as it is, remembering I write as an armour officer.

• As an officer, you're "on" all the time.  You may not realize it, but the soldiers are watching you and judging your character and capabilities 24/7.  You have to measure up to THEIR standards first and foremost.  Your conduct has to be an example and above reproach.  Some have failed in this regard, much to the CF's cost.
  
• In the Armour Corps, living and sleeping conditions certainly aren't better - RetiredRoyal has obviously forgotten his time in the infantry.  In a tank, you're first and foremost part of a crew, a very tight little team of you and three Cpl/Ptes.  You may be running around getting receiving orders, getting your orders done and the 100 and 1 things an officer has to do, but you still should be helping find all the crap that the monster at the bottom of the turret has eaten, or pulling track because your crew needs the help.  It may not be your primary duty, but God help you if you shirk "dirty work" because you think being an officer is all white gloves, tea and fox hunting. Shamrock has pointed out what a good crew will do for a very busy officer.  A good officer will deserve such treatment.
  
• Much more of an officer's time - in any trade - is spent on administration.  You'll be expected to write and to become quite literate.  Those who take the time to do so serve their soldiers by drafting properly written requests, orders, personnel evaluation reports and the like.  More importantly, good administration could well mean life or death on operations.
  
• The days of "rank having its privileges" are fading.  I'm not so sure that "life as an officer is good" anymore - there are few perks that come solely with rank these days.
  
• Officers serve much of their careers "extra regimentally employed" (ERE).  This means postings away from regimental or battalion life to training or staff jobs elsewhere.  Initially, your chances of returning to your "home" unit are good when posted away.  But as you move up the rank ladder, time away from the unit can increase to the point where it no longer exists.  After all, there are only five or so Major's jobs in each Combat Arms unit and only one Lieutenant-Colonel.  Where are all the others?  Doing staff, training and administrative jobs across Canada, looking wistfully at that picture of the strapping young Lieutenant with their troop of 15 - 20 years ago as they contemplate another day of fighting "political" fires from a cubicle on the 18th floor of National Defence Headquarters....  NCMs are also posted ERE, of course, but their chances of going "home" are significantly higher throughout their careers.
  
• At the end of the day, the biggest difference between a junior officer and a junior NCM is responsibility.  As an officer, you - personally - are responsible, no matter what, for your soldiers, for their well-being and for their operational readiness.  The Commissioning Scroll (and I'm looking at mine right now) is quite clear - even in its archaic language - in that regard.  If you cannot step up and take responsibility right from the start, then being an officer isn't for you.

For what it's worth...

TR

 

[Infanteer]

Here is a response I sent to a guy who asked about the Infantry and officer/NCM stuff.

The way I look at it, the main job of an Infantry Officer is the same at any level and any rank, from Platoon Commander to CO. He is there to set the conditions for the Privates, Corporals and Sergeants to win the battle. Whether it be as a Platoon Commander, where you give tactical direction to your NCOs or as a Battalion staff officer where you do everything in your power to ensure the riflemen are set loose properly, an Infantry Officer is fairly "hands off" when it comes to "trigger time" (or whatever you want to call it). One of my instructors on my Dismounted Platoon Commander Course was a platoon commander who was in Afghanistan and he said he only fired 3 rounds in all the TIC's he was in.

I suspect what you are really looking for is "how often can I look forward to being deployed outside the wire with the troops?" In the Infantry, look to Platoon Commander, LAV Captain, and Recce Platoon Commander as the three big ones below the rank of Major. If you occupy these positions it is then a matter of timing. If your battalion is going overseas, you're the man in the seat, if not, so be it. There are some other positions Army wide that involve time outside (OMLT, etc, etc) but these are outside of the Infantry-specific world. As mentioned, there is more fieldtime available to those inclined to move to CANSOFCOM.

Infantry jobs aside, there is the notion of becoming an officer and if it is what you really want. My advice, don't make your decision simply on whether ROTP can pay your bills. There is enough guys around with commissions that aren't 100% in the game (I'm looking at some right now) and we don't need anymore of them. The troops don't need them either. If you want to spend as much time as you can in the field and like getting your boots muddy, go as an NCM. You'll most likely be deployed every 2 years if you desire to go.

If you feel you have the abilities to stand up infront of 35 soldiers, most with more experience then you, and tell them to "follow me" (which requires the parts to convince them) and if you are willing to accept the additional burdens that this privilege demands (while they're sleeping, you're planning - sleep and command don't usually go together) AND if you're willing to accept that your skills as an Officer will demand your employment in a "hands off, brains on" form, most likely away from the very tip of the spear, then perhaps you should give the Infantry School a shot.

Take it for what it's worth.
Infanteer

 

[smitty66]

I guess I'll add my 2 cents  to the growing pile of change...

I've seen good and bad examples of both Officers and NCM's. Unfortunately sometimes the bad examples from each Mess can tend to colour ones perceptions.

As Vern mentioned the good officers are the ones that lead by example (i.e. took the high profile 0300-0400 stove watches). I've worked for an OC on an exercises that got 2 -3hrs of sleep a night while the Ptes got 6! There are instances however, where Officers can use the privilege afforded their rank, and acquire a better sleeping arrangement etc.  It all boils down to professionalism, personal integrity and leadership or lack thereof.

NCM's are no different. There are pers that claim ignorance "I'm just a Private!" after doing something that common sense and training should have dictated wasn't a great idea.  I've also seen Privates take charge in situations where direction was needed.

I tend to believe that the career choice between Officer and NCM should be dictated by what you expect out of the job. I'm of the opinion that Officers plan, Snr NCOs implement the plan, and Jr Ranks carry out the tasks dictated by Snr NCOs IAW the plan. Depending on where in the food chain you want to be is up to you. Membership in any Mess has it's privileges and "privileges".

 

[traviss-g]

Hi,
So I realize this might seem like a very stupid question but what is the difference? I understand that to be a comissioned officer you have a degree. But i have a few more questions:
1. Is there a point where an NCO can no longer be promoted and if so is it lower than that of a comissioned officer.
  A) If there is a "ceiling" for NCOs can they get around it i.e get a university degree?
2. (my understanding of the chain of command in the army is very limited at best) Is there a difference betweeen a lets say sgt who is an NCO and a sgt who is a commisioned officer.
3. What is the difference in duties performed by NCOs and comissioned officers?
4. A little off topic but could someone provide me with a link to better understand the different ranks?
Thanks for reading,
Travis