Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[ProPatria05]

I know I am treading on thin ice here, as NOBODY questions the Regimental Rogue 

However.....

I know several Lt's/Capt's in 1 and 3 RCR who commissioned from the ranks (not UTPNCM). I also did my Phase 3 and 4 (just last year) with a number of CFR's (mostly Van Doos). All were former Sgts, with the exception of one WO (six in total, I believe).  In fact, two of our course staff on Phase 4 were CFRs.  I know there were a number of CFR's that went through in 2004 as well.

Perhaps in the past it was rare, but it is obviously not so anymore, at least in the Infantry.

Just to be clear for those who don't know, the CFR program is an selection/competition that commissions certain NCOs (I believe the minimum rank is Sgt) without the requirement for a university degree, either on commissioning or as an implied task for the future. Having said that, the opportunity for progression past Captain is very limited without a university degree (based on what I have seen and have been told), although I'm sure there are individuals who have and will do this.

.......awaiting severe verbal barrage......  ;D

 

[GO!!!]

Keeping in mind that it usually takes between 8-12 years to become a Sgt, and then hope your CoC notices how great you are, just do the degree and go officer right away. I am not convinced that one requires experience as an NCM to be a good officer, and as Murph said, I am only aware of one CFR making Major - mostly because they are so old by then.

Perhaps some of the officers around here can back this up, but there seems to be a bit of prejudice in the CF against CFRs, they just don't seem to get promoted as quickly or as often as the RMC/DEO types - truth or myth?

 

[Michael OLeary]

.......awaiting severe verbal barrage......  ;D

No need for a barrage, but the questions remain whether this was due to a normal expectation for NCO career paths or short-term solutions to officer shortfalls. This has not been a long-term trend, not is there are proof it will continue any specified number of years.

How many of these NCOs started at the Recruiting Centre with a "plan" to be selected for and offered commissions at that point in their career?

How many would have been picked up if we'd had enough platoon commanders coming out of the officer entry programs?

My point has been that to make expectations of being selected for Commissioning From the Ranks (CFR) a fundamental basis of your career objectives on being recruited is a weak plan. There is absolutely no way of projecting officer requirements far enough out to predict that your suitability will coincide with CFR initiatives in 5 or 10 or 15 years.

GO!!!, it's not overt prjudice, but they will lag behind in all the little "potential" assessments at promotion merit boards. A 35 year old captain with two years in rank, albeit with 15 years as an NCM, just doesn't have the same employment potential for certain jobs as a 35 year old captain with 12 years in rank and the experience from various officer jobs that would have come with a few Extra-Regimentally Employed (ERE) postings. It's no different that the long-in-the-tooth officer that starts slipping in the lists beacuse me hasn't completed that degree, or doesn't have his language profile. So many at the top of each merit list (Offr & NCM) have all the professional development factors and are being rated by the level of job they have and their performance in it, that even missing one of those PD checkpoints can keep you out of the running. And, unfortunately, a CFR joins the race late enough that most can't catch up no matter how good they are.  For the record, I also know of a Sapper who CFR'd from MWO, went on to be a Reg LCol (now a Res F Col), and he wasn't even a "Professional Engineer". It can happen, it's just that the odds aren't great, and I wouldn't advise anyone to wager their career aspirations on them.

 

[safeboy43]

But thats exactly what im wondering , I meant is it possible to be offerred a comission as an NCO, without any post secondary education? Or is it an absolute night and day requirement that one must have postsec/education before they can be an officer, in the CF, ever ?

Yes, it is possible to become an NCO or possibly even an officer without a degree. My uncle was in the Navy from 1989-1991 and he saw a young officer walk onto the bridge who started chatting with some of the other officers. The topic eventually came to what kind of degree this new officer had. He just said "Why in the world would I need university to navigate a ship?" and then walked off. Sufficed to say, I think the other officers were kinda pissed that they used their time on university when this new guy didn't. Anyways everybody got a good laugh out of it.

Cheers

 

[a23trucker]

CFR'ing may be more common in the reserves.....
The last I heard 40% of offr in the CF do not have degrees.
These days, to CFR you must meet the same entry requirements to be an officer, or as stated, for some Sr MWO/CWO near the ends of their careers. (This now takes a real good argument by the CO!)

CFR'd offr can be promoted past capt.
I can think of at least four off the top of my head incl two L/Cols.
(I know I are one......CFR'd in '95 fm MWO.)
You just have to be in the right spot (vacancies), take the crses(4 in 5 yrs) & put in the time.

I am hearing thru the grapevine (-a Capt(N) ) that if some of the top generals want to stop the CFR process or at least put a halt to any CFR without a degree. These are the same people who want to make it a requirement that any promotion beyond capt only be considered after a 2nd or masters degree.

My 2 cents anyways......

Cheers
AM

 

[*star]

Thanks for the explanation Michael. That makes alot more sense than the widely held theory of a bunch of Patricia Generals deciding which officers are worthy over Cohibas and brandy, whilst relaxing in the regimental castle!

 

[Tracker 23A]

I was a Sgt in the PPCLI and put in for the UTPNCM program as an officer in my trade.  Previous to that, I had my year long french course and currently have my degree.  I have no expectations of reaching a high rank (if you consider a Major high), nonetheless I am one of those guys who tries no matter what.  I received my Sgt rank with only 7 years in, and being a Cornwallis graduate.  The grass may be greener on the other side, but if you want to do the job you joined as a soldier, going officer is not the thing to do.  Being in the infantry, my eagerness to be with the boys in the field and in the **** just doesn't work in the officer world.  There certaintly isn't any "hands on" on this side.  If anyone is thinking of going to the darkside, make sure you are willing to give up the fun part of the trade and accept the boring administration part.

Nonetheless, I am glad I turned to the darkside and can experience it with half my career still left.  Having been there done that, as an ex-NCM and current officer, it truly gives me a complete awareness of how each side missunderstands one another.

No matter what anyone says, anyone who has been in all three messes in the CF will get a pat on the back from me.  And no course or experience can give you that.

 

[armyvern]

Tracker. Well said. I've often thought about it and my 9ers been kicking my butt to finished off my degree and CFR. I've seriously considered it but keep coming back to my own personal feeling of being able to help more by being here in the ****. 9er thinks that's not a good reason. But, I at least think it's the right reason not to.

 

[pbi]

The up through the rank system works for those of us in the Police world. It allows the officer to relate to the troops easier as he has already gone through some of the  same experiences.

And yet my impressions of the police service in Canada today (RCMP excluded) suggest to me that:

-many municipalities look elsewhere for a Chief Constable, "parachuting" somebody in from another PD. In this case rising up from the ranks within one Dept reaches a "dead end"; and

-IMHO one of the major problems plaguing police services is that the relationship between the "officers" (i.e. the white shirts) and the "troops" (the blue shirts) is almost non-existent in the sense that we recognize it in the Army. It seems to me to be a much more divided, "us/them" situation, aggravated on one side by the presence of Police Associations that are increasingly aggressive and politicized, and on the other by "management" who seem to show very little "leadership" in any fashion that we teach/recognize in the Army.

Perhaps a simplistic perspective by an outsider, but IMHO there is some truth to what I say.

Cheers.

 

[pbi]

Bit of an odd ball question.

I guess in hollywood there is a theme that officers  who come from the ranks are sometimes treated differently (in a negitive way) by their fellow officers who never served as NCMs.  Does that stereotype have any truth or is it all hollywood crap?

This depends heavily on the personality of the officers involved. In the Canadian Army, coming from the ranks is certainly not a block to advancement: a previous CLS , LGen Mike Jefferies, started as a Gunner, and the famous MGen Lou Mackemzie was a Pte in the PPCLI. The deciding factors are not so much whether or not you were in the ranks, but rather your abilities and your level of education.

Cheers

 

[calgarytanks]

And yet my impressions of the police service in Canada today (RCMP excluded) suggest to me that:

-many municipalities look elsewhere for a Chief Constable, "parachuting" somebody in from another PD. In this case rising up from the ranks within one Dept reaches a "dead end"; and

-IMHO one of the major problems plaguing police services is that the relationship between the "officers" (i.e. the white shirts) and the "troops" (the blue shirts) is almost non-existent in the sense that we recognize it in the Army. It seems to me to be a much more divided, "us/them" situation, aggravated on one side by the presence of Police Associations that are increasingly aggressive and politicized, and on the other by "management" who seem to show very little "leadership" in any fashion that we teach/recognize in the Army.

Perhaps a simplistic perspective by an outsider, but IMHO there is some truth to what I say.

Cheers.

I think these comments are certainly relevant to the situation in Calgary at any rate.  Perhaps not with Borbridge, but certainly with our first "female" police chief who came from Ontario.  AS well, Koenig of the police association is increasingly visible in the press and has been for many years; he seems to bear more clout in political matters than the chief constable at times.

 

[pbi]

We have seen similar behaviour in Toronto by a very aggressive and controntational Association leader.

Cheers

 

[blueboy]

As PBI has noted he believes there may be a problem with rising up through the ranks, however he leaves the RCMP out of the equation. As an organization with over 20,000 members in uniform you can't exclude the force. The concept of promoting from within also works for them as it has done for other departments across the country. We in the Police field do rise up the ranks, and yes some departments do go outside themselves to find a new Chief, however that chief has also risen up through the ranks after starting his/her career as a Constable somewhere. So in fact that person has come up from the bottom. It's really no different than some Regiments allowing CF personnel from another Regiment to transfer from let's say the RCR to the PPCLI for example. It works, and works well for the most part.

 

[pbi]

As PBI has noted he believes there may be a problem with rising up through the ranks, however he leaves the RCMP out of the equation. As an organization with over 20,000 members in uniform you can't exclude the force. The concept of promoting from within also works for them as it has done for other departments across the country. We in the Police field do rise up the ranks, and yes some departments do go outside themselves to find a new Chief, however that chief has also risen up through the ranks after starting his/her career as a Constable somewhere. So in fact that person has come up from the bottom. It's really no different than some Regiments allowing CF personnel from another Regiment to transfer from let's say the RCR to the PPCLI for example. It works, and works well for the most part.

I intentionally left the RCMP out because, as a national force, they do all their promotion from "within the ranks". However, my understanding from contacts over the years is that the RCMP also suffers from a "we/they" between the commissioned officers and the lower ranks, and faces a similar "field/NDHQ"-type relationship between the lower parts of the organization and the HQ. The RCMP, despite it military heritage, battle honours, etc has IMHO retained very few of the good things about the Army but apparently has kept a number of the bad things. Perhaps these are some of the factors contributing to its current retention and recruiting problems.

Overall, my impression is that there is little or no real "leadership" in either the Police Service or the Fire Service, in a manner that we in the Army would recognize. The model seems to be a "management/worker" one, but is that really what these organizations need? Wouldn't they benefit from applying a bit more leadership by personal example/personal presence, and a bit less "management by memo", or are police and firefighters such different people that Army principles of leadership would not apply? (And, yes...I know their organizational structures are different from the Army-I get that part).

Cheers

Cheers

 

[hiphopculture]

I am only months away until my training for the infantry division training begins...... and well my goals within the military pretty much ecompass peacekeeping as much as possible... and was wondering... if i should be an officer instead.. even though ive only complete one full year of college.....i know id need a degree of some sort... which the military pays for if ive commited... but i know its dirty work to do peacekeeping and what not.. and well pretty much after the rank of leutinent youre considered too "valuable" to put you out there like that... so what would i really be doing when im a major or what not? like what is the major difference in leadership roles between a warrant officer say and a major????

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You wanna peace keep join the peace corp.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"and well pretty much after the rank of leutinent youre considered too "valuable" to put you out there like that... "

Way off.

 

[the 48th regulator]

They called me a peacekeeper....

dileas

tess

 

[Kat Stevens]

"so what would i really be doing when im a major or what not? like what is the major difference in leadership roles between a warrant officer say and a major?"

I really don't think you have to worry about that too much....

 

[Roy Harding]

I am only months away until my training for the infantry division training begins...... and well my goals within the military pretty much ecompass peacekeeping as much as possible... and was wondering... if i should be an officer instead.. even though ive only complete one full year of college.....i know id need a degree of some sort... which the military pays for if ive commited... but i know its dirty work to do peacekeeping and what not.. and well pretty much after the rank of leutinent youre considered too "valuable" to put you out there like that... so what would i really be doing when im a major or what not? like what is the major difference in leadership roles between a warrant officer say and a major????

There's a key on your keyboard labelled "Shift".  If you press it in conjunction with any character key on the keyboard you will type a capital of that character.  This enables you to transmit clear, grammatical, correctly spelled English.  For instance, you can capitalize the letter "i" - "I".  There's also a key which inserts an apostrophe into your text - try it when constructing conjunctions - it'll make your text much easier to understand.  There's also a "Spell Check" available here - it might aid you even further.

Once you master these skilsl, perhaps you can reconsider your desire to become a "peacekeeper" or maybe, like, an Officer - in the meantime, read some of the threads on this forum - there is a vast difference between the leadership roles of a Major and a Warrant Officer, as has been discussed on this board in some detail.