"Right to Work" in Canada ... thanks to PSAC's political stunt?

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Kneecapping is sooo 1990s.

Today you just have to unFriend them on Facebook.

Well let's not get into torture here............. :-*

It's no wonder public service unions are disliked by their private sector counterparts.

Really?  The only complaint I've ever heard was when they helped with out picket lines and couldn't believe we were so easy on the scabs..........

 

[exuberance]

I would have changed the second highlighted sentence to read: "I love the fact that a large group of workers can get together and set the fair price of their labour in the free market." That is the most important role of unions; it is an absolutely vital service - effective and efficient capitalism depends upon knowing and using the values of all inputs in order to set a fair price and profit margin. Labour is a significant input to most enterprises so the fair price of labour needs to be set ... in the free market, without coercion by employers, goons, governments or courts.

I'm curious.  I'm curious to know how much of a role these capitalists play in the free market.  When I say 'these capitalists' I'm referring to all the corporations that set up overseas and use a workforce that they're paying pennies in comparison to a Canadian worker.  (that happens right...)
Is the Canadian worker expected to do more for less while competing against that?  Is it good for Canadians to allow those nearly slave wage products into our 'free market'?

I have no difficulty with organized labour being involved in politics. While I thought the prairie populists of the old CCF were sold a bill of goods by David Lewis and the Canadian Labour Congress in 1960, the NDP is, of course, a wholly legitimate political movement; so is the PQ. But Canadian labour is not aligned with any party ~ witness Buzz Hargrove's alliance with the Liberals and now Robyn Benson's flirtation with the PQ. The Canadian Labour movement is against Canadian Conservatives and, therefore, "for" anyone else who opposes the Conservatives - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that. In other words, Canadian Labour is anti the Conservatives but not "for" anything identifiable: that's a pretty weak piss poor political position.

  I didn't see any of that, probably because I wasn't aware of it.  I just took it for what it was.  Through their assessment, they found Bloc policies better for the workers.  the end.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Quote from: E.R. Campbell on Today at 12:54:27

It's no wonder public service unions are disliked by their private sector counterparts.

Really?  The only complaint I've ever heard was when they helped with out picket lines and couldn't believe we were so easy on the scabs..........

Sorry, Bruce, poor wording on my part; I meant it's no wonder public sector unions are disliked by the public, at large, unionized or not.

A recent report (it took me a few minutes to find it) said:

My emphasis added.

...resentment of unions is a reality.

Public Response, a pro-labour, left-of-centre public relations firm in Ottawa, conducted an online survey last month that found a significant majority, 61 per cent, believe unions do "a good job of protecting their members' jobs."

But opinion among the 2,099 respondents was far more divided on whether "gains made by unions for their members also improve the lives of other Canadians."

Some 46 per cent agreed and 42 per cent disagreed. Significantly, 21 per cent strongly disagreed, outstripping the 15 per cent who felt strongly that unions benefit society generally.

The poll results speak to a narrative that unions are self-interested and that gains for organized labour are a detriment to the economy as a whole.

"It's an argument that's been given voice by a lot of powerful organizations and I think people are starting to believe it," said Morna Ballantyne, labour analyst for Public Response.

It doesn't matter if what 42% of the public believes is true or not, what matters is that the anti-labour "narrative" is gaining in popularity.

I'm not anti-union. In fact, I repeat: unions perform very useful services; they set the real cost of labour, they do important work in workplace health and safety, and so on. But: I believe the process through which public sector collective bargaining was introduced in Canada (and in America, Europe, etc) was badly flawed and is responsible for a cost structure which might be unsustainable. Part of the problem, the problem I perceive, is that public sector unions (not workers, per se) have a vested interest in "featherbedding" of various sorts to increase their bottom line (members' dues) so they advocate for unnecessary or inefficiently delivered public services. (Anecdotally, a few years ago, but after I had retired, a friend in the civil service told me that he was working on a brief for very high level consumption that aimed to promote efficiency in the public service even as the union (association), on the executive of which he sat, was trying to promote inefficiencies in the same sectors in order to preserve (unnecessary) jobs.)

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm curious.  I'm curious to know how much of a role these capitalists play in the free market.  When I say 'these capitalists' I'm referring to all the corporations that set up overseas and use a workforce that they're paying pennies in comparison to a Canadian worker.  (that happens right...)
Is the Canadian worker expected to do more for less while competing against that?  Is it good for Canadians to allow those nearly slave wage products into our 'free market'?
  I didn't see any of that, probably because I wasn't aware of it.  I just took it for what it was.  Through their assessment, they found Bloc policies better for the workers.  the end.

I'm not going to address your points because I am fairly certain that you and I do not share a common understanding of capital and, therefore, capitalism or capitalists, and even of labour. I'm equally certain that we disagree on what e.g. globalization is and how it works. Given those apparent (to me) differences in comprehension we cannot have conversation - we're not speaking the same language.

But  I would ask one question: is this fellow not allowed to compete for a better job, even though he works for less?

 

[cupper]

I'm curious.  I'm curious to know how much of a role these capitalists play in the free market.  When I say 'these capitalists' I'm referring to all the corporations that set up overseas and use a workforce that they're paying pennies in comparison to a Canadian worker.  (that happens right...)
Is the Canadian worker expected to do more for less while competing against that?  Is it good for Canadians to allow those nearly slave wage products into our 'free market'?
  I didn't see any of that, probably because I wasn't aware of it.  I just took it for what it was.  Through their assessment, they found Bloc policies better for the workers.  the end.

Answer you own question with this: are you willing to pay significantly more for the same goods made byhigher paid workers in Canada or the US?

 

[exuberance]

I'm not going to address your points because I am fairly certain that you and I do not share a common understanding of capital and, therefore, capitalism or capitalists, and even of labour. I'm equally certain that we disagree on what e.g. globalization is and how it works. Given those apparent (to me) differences in comprehension we cannot have conversation - we're not speaking the same language.

But  I would ask one question: is this fellow not allowed to compete for a better job, even though he works for less?

  Why didn't you just ignore me?

The only reason I asked those questions is because I clearly don't understand.  but fair enough, who has time for dolts, certainly not army.ca forum posters.

and now I'll just leave here and go continue the conversation I was having with the wall earlier. thanks.

 

[Scott]

Don't go making promises you can't keep...

 

[Retired AF Guy]

  Why didn't you just ignore me?

The only reason I asked those questions is because I clearly don't understand.  but fair enough, who has time for dolts, certainly not army.ca forum posters.

and now I'll just leave here and go continue the conversation I was having with the wall earlier. thanks.

Adios!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

  Why didn't you just ignore me?

The only reason I asked those questions is because I clearly don't understand.  but fair enough, who has time for dolts, certainly not army.ca forum posters.

and now I'll just leave here and go continue the conversation I was having with the wall earlier. thanks.

Here, let me help you make a decision.

Offence: Trolling, for a start.

Muted for a couple of days so you can reflect on your membership here.

Next step for rules violation.............the Warning System.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[mariomike]

The only complaint I've ever heard was when they helped with out picket lines and couldn't believe we were so easy on the scabs..........

From what I have read, use of that term may be restricted in the future.

July 6, 2012
The Lawyer's Weekly
Page 9

"B.C.'s Court of Appeal has upheld a lower court injunction against a union that restricts its actions on the picket line, including the use of the term "scab.":
http://www.lawyersweekly-digital.com/lawyersweekly/3210?pg=10#pg10

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Like that'll ever happen.............those clowns should run for Toronto city council and just get rid of gun crime by outlawing guns in Toronto. :



Maybe the picketers can just quietly point at a dictionary......

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab
3

a: a contemptible person b (1): a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2): a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3): a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4): one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Given the ineffectiveness of much of the current PSAC, that's no great loss.  Trade in severance pay for increases that are less than inflation?  Check.  Change leave policies to favour length of service over operational requirements or performance?  Check.

I've been in a job notionally represented by PSAC for nearly four years.  I have yet to be contacted and offered membership.  I guess as long as they have my money they don't care.


And note that giving to charity is less beneficial (from an income tax perspective) than paying union dues.  Union dues are deducted from gross income, reducing tax payable.  Charitable donations are give a tax credit at varying levels, but are still counted in initial calculations of taxable income.

Only took PSAC 5 years to change my mailing address. They are a rather ineffective bunch with some local exceptions. Our shop steward and RDG went for coffee once a week to sort out various problems, worked quite well with 2 reasonable people doing their best within the constraints of a system imposed on both.

As for firing people in Public Service, I would say that a lot of the problem is a lack of will at the manager level and lack of support at senior manager  level, along with dismal service from HR who can't seem to hold onto to staff themselves. We have been trying to let go of a staff member who failed to show up for work, we have stopped pay, but the management and HR still get cold feet about sending the final letter. Everything is dumped into the local managers lap and everytime they go for advice they get a different HR person with a no knowledge of the file and different opinion. At this point HR should be taking the file, ensure the i's are dotted and T's crossed and the letter sent.

 

[mariomike]

Maybe the picketers can just quietly point at a dictionary......

Maybe ...

June 2, 2012
"Legal decision means a thesaurus may become standard picket-line gear:

So the B.C. Court of Appeal handed down a ruling yesterday (June 1) that prohibited, among other things, workers on strike against Great Canadian Railtour Company Ltd. from pointing at SCABS--er, strikebreakers, um, sorry, replacement workers--and calling them what, in fact, they truly are: SCABS.":
http://www.straight.com/article-700441/vancouver/striking-workers-forced-yell-fuckwits-scabs-after-bc-court-ruling

"Striking workers forced to yell "_ _ _ _wits" at scabs after B.C. court ruling restricts picket language."

Fortunately, although members of a public service union from our first day on the job, we were never on strike or locked out.