RG-31 ideal for the PRes?

[KevinB]

. In my estimation, the RG31 would be near-perfect for army reserve infantry, armour and artillery units, because it could operate as an APC, recce vehicle, mini-CP, signals vehicle, gun tractor and liaison vehicle all rolled into one, without requiring you to create expensive variants to fulfill each of the roles. The big bonus is that the RG31's armour would let such units operate in conditions where the more traditional soft-skinned vehicles typically employed in these roles could not.

At a million bucks a crack, the price can't be beat.

:  Why buy the reserves anything with a price tag like that?  Reserve units are not deployed and cannot man even sub unit strength for deployments beyond the odd angry shot (Cyprus w/ SnowGoose Roto 59, Bosnia w/ Paladium Roto 11 and 12)  Those basically bankrupted the reserve system to provide the manpower.

Too me that is pissing away dollars that could be used to fund the operational Army, of which some reservists chose to be a part of...

 

[Kirkhill]

I agree with Kevin on this one.   I think that available dollars would be better spent on just supplying the Reserves with a fleet of good, solid, soft-skinned tactical and logistic vehicles with good cross-country mobility and an ability to mount heavy weapons.   Good enuff for domestic training, suitable for some overseas deployments (rapid reaction types) but more importantly readily available for domestic crises.   A small fleet of RG-31s, or Bisons or other easily learned APCs for training and domestic ops would also be in order.   You can buy 10 soft-skin vehicles for the price of one RG-31, 20 to 30 for a LAV.

Something is better than nothing.

 

[DG-41]

Reserve units are not deployed and cannot man even sub unit strength for deployments

Chicken and egg. Why show up for training and talk the job up to your friends ( a prime source of new recruits) when all your kit is older than you, falling apart, and there's no replacement in sight?

Taking eg Cougar away from the Reserves hurt recruiting and retention in a big way.

Give the Reserves some modern kit - not necessarily the best of the best, but something cool - and watch unit strength shoot way up.

DG

 

[KevinB]

DG - I sympathise -- but only AFTER operational units are equipt.

I feel for all the reservists that have shitty equiptment and train in a unreal way for somethign they are not properly trained or equipped for.  However it is not chicken and egg at all, we have no method of effectively mobilizing reserves and as such any equiptment they are given will only benifit the operations side of the Army but 5% (those PRes pers who deploy with regular units).  So it is a 95% loss other than cool toys to talk to people about.  The unfortunate solution to not wasting 95% is to have long drawn out selection/training period for the PRes to deploy as they have a sharp learning curve to train on all the kit (but then so do the Regs as most kit is operational use / training only).  Until DND restructures the reserves in an operational effective manner and comes up with some way of manadating trainign and protecting their jobs I would prefer not to see a penny more given to the PRes.

Dear Mr. and Mrs. Bloggins,

Your little Johnny was killed by an IED today, we had to send him out in a vehicle that was not up to standard, but we sent all the new armoured vehicles to the Reserves so they could improve recruiting and score with more girls.
LCol Blimp

Harshly sarcastic - but let it sink in.

 

[George Wallace]

See what 50 years of enjoying the "PEACE DIVIDEND" has done.  The Defence Budget has consistently been cut back, with the Reserves being the first to loose.  Way back, before my time, the Reserves had Shermans, then budget cuts came into effect and the Reserves got a new role as "Civil Defence" and trained to evacuate people from buildings and such.  Then they got back into being soldiers, but with low end kit.  Today's equipment isn't cheap and even the Regular Force can't get enough to equip itself completely.  Operational Units have the priority.

To make the Reserves more viable, we will have to look at the US.  Their Reserve Units are a lot different than ours.  They are in Iraq fighting as Units.  Our system is not set up the same.  The only fix, would be to totally equip the Reserves as the Regular Force.  Can it be done?  How much would that involve?  Lots and lots of cash.  We would have to begin by equipping the Regular Force Units properly first, then work down to the Reserves.  We would have to put more emphasis on the Reserves, training and career wise.  No more two year Cpls and six week BMQs.....all training will have to be to Reg Force Standards.  More time will have to be spent Parading.  Legislation will have to be passed to provide Job Protection.  Wages and Pensions will have to be en-par with the Regular Force.  Reservists will be required to heed the call and go as a Unit on a Tasking or Tour.  No longer will they have the freedom to say "I don't want to go!" on Exercise or Deployment.  They will in actual fact become RESERVE Soldiers.

How long will it take to make those changes, if ever?  How many Reservists would stay under those conditions?  How many have joined now just for the Social Status or the LCF?  How many employers would tolerate loosing an employee for year long periods?  How many Reservist Families would survive the extra training required?

People are always asking to be shown the "Peace Dividend".  Well it is staring us in the face.  It has demolished our Armed Forces.  Now the Regular Force are hurting as much as the Reserves.

How long can this rant go on...........................

 

[George Wallace]

As a Hijacking may be taking place here, I have started another thread on the major differences in our Reserves and those of the US.  Mostly questions on whether we need to transform to the American Model:
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37163.0.html

 

[DG-41]

Kevin, how about having to tell somebodies' mom, dad, or spouse that their son/daughter/husband/wife was killed when the rusted-out floorboards of their Iltis gave way and dumped them onto the highway, and then nobody could call for help because there wasn't a functional radio in the troop?

Yeah, I agree that deployed troops have priority in most things, but we've been robbing Peter to pay Paul for so long that poor Peter is in danger of dying from exposure and malnutrition.

And from the forecasts that I've been seeing, the Reserves are going to be deploying in numbers larger than ever before. I'm sending two of my guys on tour and another to the Regs; out of a notionally 8 car X 3 pers = 32 pers troop, that's 9%. And the plan is that we'll start sending an all-Reserve recce troop along on each roto starting soon.

I don't have a current number for "% of pers on each roto that are Reserves", but the numbers I have heard bandied about are pretty big - like 50% big (although I cannot vouch for that accuracy)

We're at the point where Peter has nothing more to give, and Paul is being hurt by the quality of pers that Peter is able to provide.

DG
 

 

[KevinB]

DG,

Money... 

IMHE In the current format reserves can do a better job with soft skins.  Reserve "Armoured" Recce units will never deploy as such - they should (IMHO) be scrapped, or given proper access to Coyote's to run courses on and hopefully train at the 2 car patrol level (pick you best and brightest that will show up...)

From the sources I have heard from there have been NO reserve augmentees in the 011 trade employed in trade in Recce Sqn's in theatre, nor due to training issues are their any plans.

BTW - The regs still could not radio for help either 



UNLESS We get a drastic increase (like budget X3) we cannot afford the reserves, and I agree that it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

 

[DG-41]

There is a plan afoot to send a fully-staffed Reserve Recce troop (as in - all pers in the troop are Reserve) on each roto starting soon. That plan is going full-bore ahead. I intend to command one of them, if at all possible.

More Reservists are coming online into rotos. We have to - there just aren't enough Regulars to maintain the operational tempo.

I agree on training us on soft-skins first, especially of there is a certain amount of similarity between the soft and hard veh (as there appears to be between GWagon Recce and RG-31)

DG

 

[Matt_Fisher]

As much as I hate to say it, the reserve RG-31 trainer is staring them straight in the face...LSVW.   Sure it's a crappy Italian bread truck, but it's roughly comparable in terms of load-out (2 pers up front (driver and section commander) with the remainder of the section in the back) to the RG-31.   Do a mod to it where you've got a centre bench with troops facing outboard and put a simple pedestal mount for a C6/C9 (for section carrying purposes, ditch the cargo bed tarp so as to not interfere with the MG traverse, or at least roll up the sides safari wagon style) and you have a vehicle the reserve infantry units can practice mounted patrolling from so that if/when they go on deployment, it's an smooth transition to working with the RG-31.

 

[geo]

Matt....
LSVW is the crummy Cdn copy of a relatively decent Italian truck... but I would venture to say that a Dodge Powerwagon, a CUCV, or something of that nature would be "good nuff" for most section training... with benches in the centre and troops facing out... add a turret ring - the soft skin isn't a big deal - so long as the vehicle can go into brush, ford a little bit AND you can practice black out drive a little.

DG brought up the matter of killing the reserve armoured units when the cougars were taken away.... it's more a case of what happened when they took away Cougars AND Iltis at the same time and the Armoured were told to do it like the Infantry. Between the Milcots & the GWagons, Reserve Armd recce units can go thru their drills and maintain their basic skills.

With respect to reserves on Roto... theoretical max of 20%
Haven't a clue of how we're doing right now.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Geo,

I threw LSVW out there as it's a vehicle that's already in the system and the reserve units have them.  I am more than aware that it leaves alot to be desired, but it would perform the task as an infantry section carrier for reserve unit training so as to get the guys used to vehicle mounted patrol drills, some driver training, etc. Milcots wouldn't be too suitable due to non-offroad clauses in the maintenance agreements with GM, etc. and CUCV isn't in the system any longer.

 

[geo]

Yeah... then again... I don't see too many LSVWs out there anyway.
Some Sigs vans, some ambulances but pretty much all LFQA units lost their LSVW vehicles years ago.... where they went? Search me.

So, from a local point of view - they're gonna have to rustle together something else and the best / cheapest bang for the buck you could ask for is for a commercial / militarized pickup.

 

[McG]

I think Cougar with a LAV turret is ideal for reserves.  It is low cost, but develops technical skills that can be used in augmentation.

 

[geo]

unfortunately, a good hunk of them were placed "on loan" and we'd have to fly to Sudan to use em

You're right the cougar, grizzly and Bison would have all been great reserve trainer.
Hey! weren't they bought as reserve trainers in the 1st place?

 

[Craig B]

You're right the cougar, grizzly and Bison would have all been great reserve trainer.
Hey! weren't they bought as reserve trainers in the 1st place?

I remember the MILLAV (Militia Light Armoured Vehicle, now know as Bison) , those things we had for all of 1 year before they disappeared ?

Don't mention MILLAV in mixed company, its a real conversation stopper  ;D

Craig

 

[KevinB]

There is a plan afoot to send a fully-staffed Reserve Recce troop (as in - all pers in the troop are Reserve) on each roto starting soon. That plan is going full-bore ahead. I intend to command one of them, if at all possible.

More Reservists are coming online into rotos. We have to - there just aren't enough Regulars to maintain the operational tempo.

???

20% cap currently

Most are CSS/CIMIC postions which unlike the Cbt arms are overworked.

With a rotaton schedule like TF106
  1 BN INF, 1 Recce Sqn, 1 Eng Sqn, 1 Arty Bty

We have 9 BN's of INF  so that makes 1 tour in 4.5 years hardly a hardship
Same ratio to the other Cbt Arms units.

As such augmentation is the only required or rationale method -- replacing a scheduled reg unit is DUMB - it would be a BS political decision, and cost more money to place troops that are less trained in position.

 

[a_majoor]

What is illustrative is how some armies have been able to man, equip and train their reserve armies with top of the line kit without breaking the bank, and apparently getting good results as well.

The number one on the list is the United States National Guard and Reserve, which if fielding complete combat and CSS units in Iraq. These units are in the thick of the fight, and certainly perform their jobs "over there". From what I remember, the NG normally trains one or two weekends a month, and has an annual concentration, roughly the same amount of time our reservists spend training as well.

Sweden hasn't gone to war in a long time, but their troops are concripts, and after the end of their terms they are mustered into the reserves. They undergo no continuation training, but do an annual two or three week concentration. Their Leopard 2 tanks, FH 70 cannons and CV-90s are held in warehouse-like bases and maintained by a full time cadre, only to be taken out on EX for the concentration. Most of the air force is maintained by conscripts and reservists as well, but they have no trouble with the Gripon or Viggen jet fighters.

There is no reason the Reserves could not be manned to "real" unit status, kitted with first or second line equipment and tasked to perform as formed units if there was the will to do so from the electorate and government. Reservists fall on the bell curve like any other group of people, and would add a certain depth to the regs because of their varied skill, educational and experiential backgrounds. Starting from such a small foundation and starved of resources as is the case today, it is no surprise the Reserve is unable to do more than they already do.

Should the "will" become manifest, then the title of the thread would indeed be correct, the RG-31 (or comparable vehicles like the ADI Bushmaster) would indeed be ideal for the Reserves, and for a lot of tasks in the Reg force as well (think way outside of the box and picture a "Canadian AirForce Regiment" tasked to protect airfields, for example) that do not fall in the high end of Full Spectrum Ops.

 

[Infanteer]

There is no reason the Reserves could not be manned to "real" unit status, kitted with first or second line equipment and tasked to perform as formed units if there was the will to do so from the electorate and government.

There is a reason in that personal friction is a killer.   What's the point of keeping a tank for reservists if the crew fails to show up because it has final exams?   What is the purpose of having a reserve sub-unit if there is no possible way to ensure that the command and staff gets enough time guaranteed through legislation to ensure it is properly trained?

There is no point in really equipping and organizing reserve units if "individual augmentation" continues to be the primary role of the Reserves.   If Reservists exist as a feeder pool, then put the resources in the regs where they will be utilized best by the Regs and their Reserve cousins who augment a ready unit.   The CRC's were promising, but to date, the use of any reserve augmentation above the individual level seems to be limited to force protection "gate guard" tasks or specialized support roles (CIMIC).   No point adding million dollar RG-31's or command and staff intensive fighting organizations to such structure.

I fully believe Art's bell-curve principle that the average Canadian reservist, if properly trained and employed, could be utilized in such a manner.   American Reserve units, which have more equipment and less "parade" days to use it, prove this.   However, those US units are structured correctly - contracts, mandatory attendance, job protection and tighter relationships and integration with the Active Army (ie: far easier to go between the two).   If the same political imperative isn't given to Canada's Army Reserve, then there is no point in organizing and equipping Reserve units as warfighting organizations.   Save the resources and continue to use them for what they currently are, "farm teams" that maintain basic soldier skills.

 

[KevinB]

I fully believe Art's bell-curve principle that the average Canadian reservist, if properly trained and employed, could be utilized in such a manner.   American Reserve units, which have more equipment and less "parade" days to use it, prove this.   However, those US units are structured correctly - contracts, mandatory attendance, job protection and tighter relationships and integration with the Active Army (ie: far easier to go between the two).   If the same political imperative isn't given to Canada's Army Reserve, then there is no point in organizing and equipping Reserve units as warfighting organizations.   Save the resources and continue to use them for what they currently are, "farm teams" that maintain basic soldier skills.

+1

  However until that changes I view 90-95% of the reserves money poorly spent.

I fully beleive the typical reserve soldier could be just as good is not better in some areas that his regular force counterpart - given the tools -- however tool #1 is an effective system.