Reserve Call Outs/Employment Full Time

[PJ D-Dog]

OK
This whinning from a couple of you with bad attitudes is getting to me.   If you truly want to get that 15% you feel you aren't getting paid now, then you'll also have to start paying the same Rent, Rations, etc as the Regs when you go work on a Call Out.....   You can't have everything....the cake and eat it too.... You want the benefits, but don't want to pay the dues.    Grow up!

First:  from your tone, it is apparent to me that you have not served in the modern day reserves and can't identify with the actually problem.  If I am wrong, I will be more than happy to stand corrected.

Second:  we're not on this forum to tell people to be quiet about their views and concerns.  We're here to disucss those things that need correcting.  It's called being progressive.  If your interest is to tell people to shut up and stop complaining, then you should visit another thread where everything is rosie and you can think back to the good old days and collect your pension.

Third:  When I was on class B, I had to pay rations and quarters while living on base.  I may be wrong or it may have changed, but class B soldiers in excess of 180 days have to pay for quarters.  And yes, with 15 per cent less salary than my reg force counterparts.  Oh, and you have to pay mess dues as well.  Every summer I spent on class B on base, I was required to pay mess dues to a mess I never went too because we were too busy.  On top of that, I also had to pay yearly mess dues at my unit's mess.  So in effect, I was paying mess dues twice a year because I had too and I was still getting less pay than the reg force.

I am sick to death of the reg force attitude of how reservists are just pieces of trash and how they don't have any real bills etc....I heard this for 11 years.  I have heard the argument you presented here before as well.  It's not like reservists are not trying to serve their country, they are doing the best they can with what is offered to them.  And don't even think if coming back at me with the  old "you should have joined the regs instead" routine either.  The recruiting system is broken, reservists are not treated with the value they should be and under Canadian law, you can't pay someone in the government less money for doing the same job as someone getting paid more money.  Equal pay for equal work performed.  If the balloon goes up and the reserves are activated to class B and deployed, they would still be getting the same amount of money and doing the exact same job as the reg force counter parts.  That stuff is just wrong.  Enough said.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Britney Spears]

you can't pay someone in the government less money for doing the same job as someone getting paid more money.  Equal pay for equal work performed.

But the argument would be that reservists, by not being a member of the reg force, are not doing the same job.

PJ, I've heard of situations like you describe, and I do agree that it is a bit of a kick to the nuts, but at the same time I don't think it's prevalent enough to warrant a complete overhaul of the pay system. IMO that the pers in those situations should never have been on Class B, but on Class C instead. I myself would certainly never have agreed to work under those conditions. If such a position was offered to me, I would have asked for a class C contract and if they didn't have one, then they can go find someone from Battalion to do the job, since that IS what they get the extra 15% for. Sounds more like a leadership failiure than a failiure of the pay system.

 

[George Wallace]

PJ D-Dog

I have been reading your bitter posts.

When I was on class B, I had to pay rations and quarters while living on base.  I may be wrong or it may have changed, but class B soldiers in excess of 180 days have to pay for quarters.  And yes, with 15 per cent less salary than my reg force counterparts.  Oh, and you have to pay mess dues as well.  Every summer I spent on class B on base, I was required to pay mess dues to a mess I never went too because we were too busy.  On top of that, I also had to pay yearly mess dues at my unit's mess.  So in effect, I was paying mess dues twice a year because I had too and I was still getting less pay than the reg force.

If you paid Mess Dues twice, that is not my problem or anyone else's.  It is yours for not going back to your Unit and having them reimbursed. Your Problem not ours.

Your bitterness comes out even more with this post:

I am sick to death of the reg force attitude of how reservists are just pieces of trash and how they don't have any real bills etc....I heard this for 11 years.  I have heard the argument you presented here before as well.  It's not like reservists are not trying to serve their country, they are doing the best they can with what is offered to them.  And don't even think if coming back at me with the  old "you should have joined the regs instead" routine either.  The recruiting system is broken, reservists are not treated with the value they should be and under Canadian law, you can't pay someone in the government less money for doing the same job as someone getting paid more money.  Equal pay for equal work performed.  If the balloon goes up and the reserves are activated to class B and deployed, they would still be getting the same amount of money and doing the exact same job as the reg force counter parts.  That stuff is just wrong.  Enough said.

Sorry buds, but many of us in the Regs have been there (in the Reserves) too.  Perhaps we were even worse off than you.  We, too, are sick to death of bitter Reservists stating this stuff (I am trying to be polite) all the time to make a case for themselves.   I know of many instances where people are working for the Government, Federal, Provincial and Municipal, are working for less than they should be getting.  Life is a Bit*h.  Some of us tough it out, others run off and sulk elsewhere.  

Currently there is research being done (again) into the feasability's of a Pension for the Reserves.  There are lots of complications and hurdles to be covered.  The same can be said about Reserve Pay.  Many on this Board remember the day when they were paid twice a year.  Now, Reservists are enjoying more regular pay cheques.  The Reserve Pay System was modernized a few years back and will be changing again to come more in line with the Regular Force Pay System.  

Now I ask you, do you like it when you are working 24/7 for life as a Member of a Regular Armed Force and the guy next to you working (?) a fraction of that(part-time), with less experience and knowledge as you, is going to draw the same pay check?  It doesn't happen in the Building Trades, nor on the Assembly Line, nor anywhere that I can think of; but......I'll leave it to you.  

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Britany:  We tried that route but when you have 25 per cent of billets on the base filled by reservists because there are not enough reg force to do the job, Class C ends up costing too much.  You are right, it is a leadership failure in that case.

PJ

 

[Infanteer]

Now I ask you, do you like it when you are working 24/7 for life as a Member of a Regular Armed Force and the guy next to you working (?) a fraction of that(part-time), with less experience and knowledge as you, is going to draw the same pay check?

When a reservist infantry platoon goes out into the field to train, it digs in, conducts recce patrols, executes tactical planning according to doctrine and attacks and defends against OPFOR forces.   They do pickets, stand-tos, and are responsible to the universal regulations and orders of the Forces.

I fail to see how this is different?   I could hardly discern the difference when I hung around the Reg Force (where I hung around the Coy Lines and did some training and would deploy to the field) and the Reserves (where I hung around the Armoury floor and did some training and would deploy to the field to train).   A buddy just returned from a three year BE with the RCD's to my old Reserve unit and he said it was nothing but "3 years of Class B"....

 

[54/102 CEF]

OK ......

You can't have everything....the cake and eat it too.... You want the benefits, but don't want to pay the dues.    Grow up!

You highlight what I think is a pervasive, widespread and persistant misunderstanding of what the dues are

They are only - adherence to 100% of QR and O and CF regulations - same for regulars and reserves

Defenders of the country, in uniform subject to QR and O are only governed by this one set of standards.

Deployments and living inside the full time bubble bring with them access to camp community resources like PMQs (horrors of housing) - family support centers (good) deployment pay and pensions (not so good). Thats all. We already have everyting else in the civilian community. In short - your tax dollars already paid for your camp facilities which you equate as benefits and they are gouging you on PMQs.

To equate living in a run down base like Petawawa as a benefit works against highly educated people coming into DND`s deployable field forces.

Far better to deploy troops from across the entire spectrum of the Canadian population and build rather than weaken the views of the taxpayer for the pretend pseudo exclusive bargaining unit.

The regulars are the core - but the rest is still to be developed - I suspect its not managed readieness - its something as yet undefined that should be available to the Canada Comd / or the Joint Force through the Govt of Canada which has not yet happened - as in an integrated Army.

 

[Britney Spears]

Britany:  We tried that route but when you have 25 per cent of billets on the base filled by reservists because there are not enough reg force to do the job, Class C ends up costing too much.  You are right, it is a leadership failure in that case.

And while I'm not sure of the exact extent, I can tell you that the same concept of ops is still being used. As always it boils down to money. On the other hand, I don't think even a class B over 180 days is neccesarily the same as a Reg F posting, not unless you're going to be doing it for 3 years.  Bottom line is that people are willing to do these "cheapskate" class Bs, and if that's what the market will bear, well, we have to stay competitive right? It IS still a part time job after all.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Now I ask you, do you like it when you are working 24/7 for life as a Member of a Regular Armed Force and the guy next to you working (?) a fraction of that(part-time), with less experience and knowledge as you, is going to draw the same pay check?  It doesn't happen in the Building Trades, nor on the Assembly Line, nor anywhere that I can think of; but......I'll leave it to you.  

I do not have a problem with reservists getting pay equity with the regular force.  When they are in uniform, they should be paid the same amount.

I can only draw on my own experience discussing this with reg force soldiers (usually playing pokey chest in the mess) and their arguments have always been based on some of what you touched on in your quote.  But it always stemmed from some form of innane hatred of the reserves.  Granted, the reserves have their share of trash birds and they often send them off to augment the reg force.  The circumstances in which a reg force soldier performs his duties and that a reservist performs his are inherently different due, in part, to the structure of the organization.  The demands placed on todays reservists are different from what they were years ago.

If you take the reg force 24/7 better trained issue and measure it up against the reservist, who has to balance a civilian career with the training demands, going on course, family life etc...in the end they balance themselves out, although the issues each face are different.  Reservists have to essentially perform the same or similar functions as a reg force soldier but with many more handicaps than the reg force soldier.  These handicaps are imposed on him by a system that he cannot change.  

When I speak of essentially perform the same functions, what I refering too is the training standard that now exists in the reserve house.  In the artillery, when a soldier goes on a course, he is learning the same subject matter and needs to perform to the same school standard as a regular force soldier in order to successfully complete the course.  The difference here is that the amount of training time is reduced although the evaluation standard is the same as the regular force.  This standardization movement came about in the mid 1990s and it has been expanding eversince.  An example of this is the basic arty tech course.  In 1997/98 I was teaching this course to both reserve and regular force soldiers.  The course package was the same but the time in which to complete it was shorter.

The reserve system is not equitable for the reservist doing the job.  An overhaul is needed and this discussion can probably carry on for years to come.  Having said that, the preliminary steps still need to be taken to make it more equitable.  Standardization of training was one step.  Pay equity needs to be the next.

PJ D-Dog

 

[George Wallace]

When a reservist infantry platoon goes out into the field to train, it digs in, conducts recce patrols, executes tactical planning according to doctrine and attacks and defends against OPFOR forces.   They do pickets, stand-tos, and are responsible to the universal regulations and orders of the Forces.

I fail to see how this is different?   I could hardly discern the difference when I hung around the Reg Force (where I hung around the Coy Lines and did some training and would deploy to the field) and the Reserves (where I hung around the Armoury floor and did some training and would deploy to the field to train).   A buddy just returned from a three year BE with the RCD's to my old Reserve unit and he said it was nothing but "3 years of Class B"....

I must admit that PJ D-Dog does have a point in reference to Full time/Long term Call Outs, as for your example here also.   However, to generalize, these are the extreme cases and not the norm for most Reservists.   (Although, times are changing and more are filling Full-time roles.)

54/102 CEF

You have totally lost me.  Do you mean to say that Regular Force People serving in Petawawa must pay the dues of "living in a run down base like Petawawa as a benefit works against highly educated people coming into DND`s deployable field forces."?  Talking about misconceptions:

Deployments and living inside the full time bubble bring with them access to camp community resources like PMQs (horrors of housing) - family support centers (good) deployment pay and pensions (not so good). Thats all. We already have everyting else in the civilian community. In short - your tax dollars already paid for your camp facilities which you equate as benefits and they are gouging you on PMQs.

 Are you bringing up that old myth that we don't pay taxes and live in free housing too?  You need a little more research into how things are funded and who really pays.  You need to find out how much comes out of the Serviceman's pockets to facilitate these resources.

 Far better to deploy troops from across the entire spectrum of the Canadian population and build rather than weaken the views of the taxpayer for the pretend pseudo exclusive bargaining unit.

The regulars are the core - but the rest is still to be developed - I suspect its not managed readieness - its something as yet undefined that should be available to the Canada Comd / or the Joint Force through the Govt of Canada which has not yet happened - as in an integrated Army.

This has been a pipe dream since 1949.

 

[George Wallace]

I do not have a problem with reservists getting pay equity with the regular force.   When they are in uniform, they should be paid the same amount.

I The reserve system is not equitable for the reservist doing the job.   An overhaul is needed and this discussion can probably carry on for years to come.   Having said that, the preliminary steps still need to be taken to make it more equitable.   Standardization of training was one step.   Pay equity needs to be the next.

PJ D-Dog

Although I chopped your post, I included a fragment, to reference the good points you put forward in itthe total post.   I agree with you on that one.  Good post.

 

[54/102 CEF]

54/102 CEF

You have totally lost me.  Do you mean to say that Regular Force People serving in Petawawa must pay the dues of "living in a run down base like Petawawa as a benefit works against highly educated people coming into DND`s deployable field forces."?  

the only dues the regs pay is adherance to QR and O like all CF members   - and yes the creepy bases drive people away from the forces - unless they target unemployed pers from economically unstable re gions of the country then these look like oasis of stability vs. driving a dump truck in Gagetown   - but don`t flame me yet as I want to vastly improve your dire straits

54/102 CEF

  Are you bringing up that old myth that we don't pay taxes and live in free housing too?   You need a little more research into how things are funded and who really pays.  

No - I am making the point that the regular forces are being gulled, correction have been gulled, into believing that what they have already paid for in their taxes is a benefit. The company town is a very poor trade off for full time soldiers and should be vastly improved. I would think no one would hold back from giving the Regs real money to buy a top of the line house and bull doze the bases. Loblaws can provide your Canex requirements.

And this also includes 100% pay for reserves

 

[George Wallace]

You should not have brought up CANEX, as they are not fulfilling their role to "Serve the Military" that they once did.  But tthat is another thread....

 

[c_canuk]

This whinning from a couple of you with bad attitudes is getting to me.  If you truly want to get that 15% you feel you aren't getting paid now, then you'll also have to start paying the same Rent, Rations, etc as the Regs when you go work on a Call Out.....

I pay 450 a month for my apartment, on top of that I pay 100 for heat, 70 for lights, and 300 for food, a single guy livinging in the shacks pays 400 a month on average for all of that... and as a reservist I'm not allowed to live in the shacks unless I'm on callout, any call out long enough to not need to keep my apartment I have to pay rats and quarters and still get 15% less

do you mean while overseas? Reservists are required to maintain their apartment while overseas. yeah I don't have to pay for food when overseas, but I didn't think anyone did.

 You can't have everything....the cake and eat it too.... You want the benefits, but don't want to pay the dues.   Grow up!

I'm not POed about being paid 15% less because it's a policy created who knows when, I don't like it when I'm told that I'm not worth as much day per day that I put in, I only get paid days I work, how many reg force people get paid for weekends they don't work? I'm not saying this is a bad thing as they are on call 24/7, and as I'm waiting for my transfer into the reg I'm certainly looking forward to having the majority of my weekends to my self and not up to my neck in filth.

I'm not asking for all the perks that a Reg force member gets, just want for the days I do work, the same pay. I've just recently found out that the days I worked in class b and c for the most part don't count towards my pension 1 for 1 because only once have I been on contract for longer than 90 days.I've had different contracts butt up against eachother though.

even on Class C I always get bumped down from Cpl(4) to Cpl(1) and when I bring it up I'm told "Take it or leave it", of course I take it, then I get Regs mistaking me for another Reg and whine to me about how horrible the Res are, not like "US", I just grin and pretend I'm not offended cause it's not worth my time to deal with them when they find out I'm a "rag tag reservist"and try to take it as a complement to my proffesionalism.

for the most part we aren't happy about the situation, but don't activley whine about it, but if you ask us how we feel about it, or have a discussion about it, we may provide our opinion.

 

[turretmonster]

"Bottom line is that people are willing to do these "cheapskate" class Bs, and if that's what the market will bear, well, we have to stay competitive right? It IS still a part time job after all."

I think you will find most long term Class B(A)'s and even some B's run from April 1 to Mar 31st or 365 days. Some are now even three years in order to keep thew right people in the right job to support the CF. They do the same PT, work the same hours at one job, then some train on Thursday nights and weekends with their Regts, do the same BET and get evaluated on the same scale as the Regs.

Just how is that a part time job again?

TM

 

[George Wallace]

For extra reading, go to the Reserve Pension Thread.  It will cover some of the matters that are being brought up here also, and may prevent double posting of sentiments.  I to have had the 'pleasure' of working for much less and the disappointment of seeing my Callouts mean zero towards my Pension Buy Back when I joined the Regs.  There are many problems with the system if viewed from one side only.  Perhaps it would help to look at them from another perspective.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

There are many problems with the system if viewed from one side only.   Perhaps it would help to look at them from another perspective.

I don't see what the other perspective can be other than from the regular force side.  The reserve system was created during another time.  We are now faced with some very changing times.  The reg force needs to reserves to keep functioning.  That is a reality in today's CF world.  As much as some would not want to admit this, it is the truth.

The truth of the matter is that reservists are not getting their just reward for the support they give the regular force.  This is something that is painful to have to change.  Change management has been the biggest down fall of the CF.  I don't think the reserve situation that I was in or that turetmonster is in and that hundreds of other reservists are in is a unique case.  It is has been and continues to evolve as the norm in the present day reserve force.

There has always been a reg force vs rreservesmentality.  In my experience, this has stemmed from many reg force members needing to justify to themselves why they are reg force and not reserves.  It has to do with a need for soldiers to maintain their identity when faced with "outsiders" aka the reserves, coming in and taking what some may believe to be their cushy little desk jobs.

When I began this thread, my intent was to examine how we could more closely align the regular force and reserves in terms of contractual obligations.  In aaddition it was also to see if there is mmeritin developing such a system in order to keep the best people we can by offering them something of value to get them to stay on.  Every year, the reserves hhemorrhagea good number of people who would otherwise have stayed in and made a positive impact on the CF but who did not feel they could ever overcome any of the barriers currently in place within the system.  Many were also not able to rre-conciliatethe negative attitude they had to face on a daily basis from their reg fforcecounterparts who were supposed to be their ccomrades in arms.

Other than a full-time job, the question that bbegsto be answered is this:  what incentive is there left for rreserviststo carry on within the CF?

Food for thought....

PJ D-Dog

 

[c_canuk]

I don't think you will ever be able to get rid of the reg force vs reserve mentality, the fact of the matter is you will be placing people who are new to a group into the middle of a tightly knit unit, that will always cause some friction, but we can minimize some of that by making sure that even though res are part timers, nothing is spared in their training, and that there are no old school policies that discriminate against them.

I believe that there should be a break in period for a res entering a reg working environment, but it shouldn't last longer than necessary for a member to show that they are capable.

Providing motivation to be available for this training however is important and at the moment only the most dedicated make it to all trg events. It's a lot harder to muster up the drive to attend 3 weekends a month when you've been working all week as well.

Attendance bonuses and job protection could go a long way towards helping that. I know myself I'm teetering on the edge of getting out/joining the regs... I'm very useful to my unit where I am, but my civy job has forced me to choose which job I'll keep, if they were forced to keep my job like they are with our US National Gaurd employees I'd be able to stay with my current unit.

 

[LowRider]

The truth of the matter is that reservists are not getting their just reward for the support they give the regular force.  This is something that is painful to have to change. 

If you want what the Reg force guys are getting then join the regs!Otherwise stop complaining.Being in the reserves is part time,it's good pay for part time work,and they are very flexible when it comes to those who work full time civvie jobs like myself.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

If you want what the Reg force guys are getting then join the regs!Otherwise stop complaining.Being in the reserves is part time,it's good pay for part time work

Again, your quote exemplifies exactly the attitude that I am talking about.  How easy is it to join the regs?  I know guys who have been waiting nearly two years to get in.  I know reservists who had to wait a year just for their application to clear the reserve system and make it to CFRC for the component transfer and no one knows how long it will take from there.

Telling people to shut up and join the regs is not a productive response.  How about those reservists who have 20 or so years in and have consistently served on class B (A)?  Are you telling them to shut up and join the regs as well?  What kind offer will they get from the reg force.  Can you give us the answers needed so that we can apply the solution you are suggesting?  Can you tell us how to get into the reg force without having to wait up to two years to get in and still be able to make a living while we wait?  I'd like to hear your entire solution to this issue.

PJ D-Dog

 

[LowRider]

Telling people to shut up and join the regs is not a productive response.  How about those reservists who have 20 or so years in and have consistently served on class B (A)?  Are you telling them to shut up and join the regs as well?

Yea im am,Anyone who has been in that long had full intentions on "making a career out of the reserves".We have plenty of those types at our unit who don't have a full time job but they just do the reserve thing,and have a part time/full time job.Some go reg force and others just don't wanna make the commitment.in any case don't expect to get chicken salad from chicken shit.