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Replacing the Subs

I think we find niches where we can fill the gaps to fulfill our obligations to NATO or the UN.
So Army side for NATO a Heavy Mech Bde (or what NATO has requested)

There are Zero Zilch Nada Obligations to the UN to supply forces for anything.
There seems to be a weakness in logistics at sea, for instance. We could jump on that and be a valued member of any effort with a much easier sell to the public. If you’re selling your electorate on the fact that you’re setting up as a transport oriented military ally, there’s less of an uproar from the unaware. The thing is, you need to also protect that logistics group so it’s necessary to also purchase subs, surface assets and surveillance uavs etc.

I’m rambling. But somewhere up above, I think there’s a point.
Allies want boots in the mid beside theirs.
They want Air and Naval power on the front lines with theirs.

No one will respect a nation of butlers and stewards.
 
RCMP could take care of the peacekeeping.
Except that civilian police officers (it's not just the RCMP - other service contribute under their umbrella) cannot be mandated outside of their county/province. Besides, every copper deployed leaves a vacancy at home and many services, including the RCMP, are already chronically understrength.

I think we find niches where we can fill the gaps to fulfill our obligations to NATO or the UN. There seems to be a weakness in logistics at sea, for instance. We could jump on that and be a valued member of any effort with a much easier sell to the public.
Perhaps an easier sell domestically, but allies who are actually shedding blood might not see us as an equal partner when our contribution consists of an efficient way to repatriate their fallen.

I still wish Canada would jump feet first into AUKUS.

Having spurned their initial advances (or simply been ignored, I'm not sure which), I'm not convinced we are wanted in. What do we bring to the table?
 
Spoken like a true operator.

Lol

I think it a time of major conventional warfare Logistics is going to be a pillar of victory.

And the ability to get people and material to the fight will be as important as the fight itself.
That's why I would like to see us have 4 AOR's and 2 amphibious landing ships like the Mistrals, even if we gave up two MCDV and a CSC to get them. Run them mostly with RCFA crew. The Mistrals when not doing landing sort of things, can be transports, Command and support ships for things like the pirate mission and provide a place for Allies to repair their helicopters, etc.
 
Except that civilian police officers (it's not just the RCMP - other service contribute under their umbrella) cannot be mandated outside of their county/province. Besides, every copper deployed leaves a vacancy at home and many services, including the RCMP, are already chronically understrength.


Perhaps an easier sell domestically, but allies who are actually shedding blood might not see us as an equal partner when our contribution consists of an efficient way to repatriate their fallen.



Having spurned their initial advances (or simply been ignored, I'm not sure which), I'm not convinced we are wanted in. What do we bring to the table?
Right, but I meant the RCMP takes care of peacekeeping at home if the army was downscaled, if it was required. I’m referring here to if something like Oka or FLQ were to happen again.

As far as bleeding with partners and allies, or reducing us to butlers and stewards, I believe I mentioned keeping a specialized force like CSOR relevant and deployable to areas of need, as well as training. And, providing logistical support in theatre is not always a walk in the park, is it? I’m not saying to abandon allies to fight in the mud on their own, but are we really bringing anything extra to the table with the equipment we are currently capable of fielding? I get how much Canadian troops are valued worldwide by any number of our allies, but it seems to me that we either fund them and equip them all the way (which is not the case currently) or we reorganize them to a more specialized role and divert any savings (if there were any) to the RCAF and the RCN, which will be helpful to our Allies, NATO and NORAD.
 
It was always an option, and likely the only one given we've never build or ordered a submarine to our specs in our entire history. Read up on CC1 and CC2 the first RCN subs. Probably the fastest procurement process in Canadian history. And done by BC, not the Federal Gov't!
For anybody who is curious about the full story, it legitimately sounds like something out of a low budget Spy B-Movie. It's a crime that there hasn't been any mainstream coverage of something like this.

In late July 1914, a group of influential figures and politicians had gathered at the Union Club in Victoria. With the topic of war with Germany being popular at the time, many spoke how to defend British Columbia. One of the men in the room was James Paterson, President of the Seattle Dry Dock and Construction Company. He would tell the group that his company happened to be in possession of a pair of submarines that could possibly be up for sale. Another figure in attendance, William Logan, (representative of Lloyd's of London, a major nautical insurance company and regulatory body) would eventually be used as a middle man to connect Paterson with Premier McBride. Said Premier would receive a telephone call from Logan within the next few days and upon hearing the news, he was convinced. He had been looking for ways to reinforce the provinces defenses with war looming and Federal government being so useless with regard to naval matters, he saw it time to take matters into his own hands. Once it was confirmed that the submarines were still available, things went into motion quickly. Chile had originally commissioned the pair of boats however, they had defaulted on their payments and the ships were laying finished but unused. A price was not initially agreed upon but regardless, Logan sent this news through to McBride who in return, brought Logan, a cabinet Minister from Ottawa, a local MP and the Attorney General of BC into his office to discuss the purchase. All parties agreed with the fact that Canada needed the submarines and a preliminary estimate was assigned of $375,000 each for the vessels.

Chile had planned to buy both subs originally for $818,000 however with the Canadians in a desperate position with no alternative, Paterson raised the price for both boats to $1,150,000, denying any attempts at negotiation. He would also specify that the submarines had to be paid for in full with a government cheque. McBride would break, getting the funds from the province itself and moved to purchase the boats before the US president signed the neutrality act, cutting any belligerent nations off from buying war materials. The Lieutenant-Governor signed an order-in-council to get McBride a cheque worth $1.15 million~ for the subs. While this was ongoing, McBride continually attempted to get a solid answer or permission from both the Royal Navy Admiralty, the Federal government in Ottawa and the heads of the Royal Canadian Navy as to if the deal was fair and if the boats would be useful. The Royal Navy Lieutenant which had been roped into commanding the Esquimalt Navy Base and the entirety of British Columbia's naval defenses desperately tried to get answers from all parties as well but between his other duties and no clear answers from his superiors on the submarines, the deal went ahead without clear federal support/approval.

William Logan alongside a fresh naval reservist randomly grabbed off the Esquimalt parade grounds would arrive in Seattle on the day of war being declared with Germany, with orders to get the submarines into Canadian waters in order for the sale to be undertaken. In British Columbia, Premier McBride handed a $1.15 million dollar cheque to the Royal Navy Lieutenant for sake keeping, who in turn would give it to another officer and sent him aboard a tugboat to meet the submarines. Paterson would lead the two Canadians through the dockyard which was filled with Chilean/American naval staff and inspectors. After attempting to bring aboard sailors around the dock for "special trials at night", the three men boarded the submarines and snuck out of the harbor with no running lights and on their electric motors that evening. The Canadians reached their waiting tug in Canadian waters two hours before the US neutrality act was passed, making the sale legal. Retired Royal Navy submariners spent a few hours inspecting the submarines. In the end, the cheque was handed over and Paterson requested a receipt which was written on the back of a spare envelope held against the boats conning tower.

When both subs approached Esquimalt later on, the examination vessel saw the submarines, turned around at full speed and ran into the harbor signaling about a pair of German torpedo boats approaching. Luckily, one of the militia officers commanding the coastal defense guns identified the vessels as looking like British style submarines and ceased fire. Rumor says neither ship had naval ensigns, so pillow cases were raised at their masts. The US Navy would later send out a cruiser in an attempt to track the submarines down but would find nothing. A major political spat would ensue with the Chilean, American and Canadian governments about the purchase but while somewhat underhanded, nothing would eventually come out of the matter as it was legally undertaken. The Royal Navy Lieutenant in partial charge of the operation and a large amount of the planning would eventually have a mental break down and was dismissed from his post. Waiting for orders that never came, being forced to make multiple potentially career ruining decisions in such a short proximity and carrying around a $27 million dollar cheque (converted to 2020 Canadian dollars) took their toll on the poor man. The cheque itself was worth almost three times the budget of the entire RCN from 1913 to 1914. As it turned out the submarines left Seattle with no torpedoes (!) or spare parts. Old torpedoes had to be sent across Canada from Halifax to actually arm the submarines after they were modified to fit. The torpedo techs in Halifax fueled the torpedoes with their compressed air propellent to test them but forgot to let off the compressed air prior to loading, meaning some of the torpedoes air flasks were overpressured for the entire trip across the country by train.

The submarines themselves were originally rejected by the Chilean Navy due to their quality control issues and dangerous diving characteristics. The boats were very susceptible to nose or tail dives when submerging or ascending, ballast tanks had issues with taking in and discharging water efficiently. The main engine cylinder heads could not stand the heat generated by full speed running and they would crack and require replacement after generally 6 hours of running. The submarines had to be effectively stripped down entirely to correct many of these issues. Various valves were damaged and clogged with debris from the construction, items like cleaning rags, wooden planking and even coveralls were found inside the piping systems. All of the internal sacrificial zinc anodes installed in the tanks to reduce corrosion were installed on top of the paintwork with no contact with the metal they were supposed to protect. Hull plating on and near the waterline was frequently pitted and bare of paint. It was eventually found that the steel pressure-hull plating had not been properly treated to limit corrosion/rusting pickled during manufacture. Rivets used on the hull were also low quality and frequently had to be replaced.

The fresh reservist who was plucked from the parade square would be promoted from an Able Seamen all the way to a Sub-Lieutenant for his efforts. Paterson would get a $40k commission from selling the boats in 1914, or $1.027m in 2020. The British Columbia government would be in possession of the submarines for a short period of time before the RCN took them over and eventually covered the expenses in their procurement, making them the only province to have a Navy, unofficially of course. The submarines crews would enter a crash course in training by former Royal Navy submariners who had previously retired to Canada, eventually being put to sea with only weeks of training to patrol. For multiple periods prior to their torpedoes arriving, these boats would patrol for German warships with no armament aboard. While they would never face German warships, they would serve as Canada's first submarines and a pretty comedic showcase of what Canadian procurement can be at its best or worst.
 
It took awhile to find the rags in the ballast tanks that would cause the sub to have weird diving characteristics, as they would interminably clog the pickup valve strainers.
 
Keep in mind German Merchant raiders were busy in the Indian Ocean, south Pacific and no one had a clear idea of their intent or capabilities. The Japanese navy was tasked with the defense of the West Coast of Canada, but I don't believe they had any vessels stationed here?

Often wondered if there had been a better integration between the IJN and the RN in WWI, if that would have affected the way WWII would have played out? At the very least the abilities of the Japanese to conduct operations would not have been so easily dismissed.
 
For anybody who is curious about the full story, it legitimately sounds like something out of a low budget Spy B-Movie. It's a crime that there hasn't been any mainstream coverage of something like this.

In late July 1914, a group of influential figures and politicians had gathered at the Union Club in Victoria. With the topic of war with Germany being popular at the time, many spoke how to defend British Columbia. One of the men in the room was James Paterson, President of the Seattle Dry Dock and Construction Company. He would tell the group that his company happened to be in possession of a pair of submarines that could possibly be up for sale. Another figure in attendance, William Logan, (representative of Lloyd's of London, a major nautical insurance company and regulatory body) would eventually be used as a middle man to connect Paterson with Premier McBride. Said Premier would receive a telephone call from Logan within the next few days and upon hearing the news, he was convinced. He had been looking for ways to reinforce the provinces defenses with war looming and Federal government being so useless with regard to naval matters, he saw it time to take matters into his own hands. Once it was confirmed that the submarines were still available, things went into motion quickly. Chile had originally commissioned the pair of boats however, they had defaulted on their payments and the ships were laying finished but unused. A price was not initially agreed upon but regardless, Logan sent this news through to McBride who in return, brought Logan, a cabinet Minister from Ottawa, a local MP and the Attorney General of BC into his office to discuss the purchase. All parties agreed with the fact that Canada needed the submarines and a preliminary estimate was assigned of $375,000 each for the vessels.

Chile had planned to buy both subs originally for $818,000 however with the Canadians in a desperate position with no alternative, Paterson raised the price for both boats to $1,150,000, denying any attempts at negotiation. He would also specify that the submarines had to be paid for in full with a government cheque. McBride would break, getting the funds from the province itself and moved to purchase the boats before the US president signed the neutrality act, cutting any belligerent nations off from buying war materials. The Lieutenant-Governor signed an order-in-council to get McBride a cheque worth $1.15 million~ for the subs. While this was ongoing, McBride continually attempted to get a solid answer or permission from both the Royal Navy Admiralty, the Federal government in Ottawa and the heads of the Royal Canadian Navy as to if the deal was fair and if the boats would be useful. The Royal Navy Lieutenant which had been roped into commanding the Esquimalt Navy Base and the entirety of British Columbia's naval defenses desperately tried to get answers from all parties as well but between his other duties and no clear answers from his superiors on the submarines, the deal went ahead without clear federal support/approval.

William Logan alongside a fresh naval reservist randomly grabbed off the Esquimalt parade grounds would arrive in Seattle on the day of war being declared with Germany, with orders to get the submarines into Canadian waters in order for the sale to be undertaken. In British Columbia, Premier McBride handed a $1.15 million dollar cheque to the Royal Navy Lieutenant for sake keeping, who in turn would give it to another officer and sent him aboard a tugboat to meet the submarines. Paterson would lead the two Canadians through the dockyard which was filled with Chilean/American naval staff and inspectors. After attempting to bring aboard sailors around the dock for "special trials at night", the three men boarded the submarines and snuck out of the harbor with no running lights and on their electric motors that evening. The Canadians reached their waiting tug in Canadian waters two hours before the US neutrality act was passed, making the sale legal. Retired Royal Navy submariners spent a few hours inspecting the submarines. In the end, the cheque was handed over and Paterson requested a receipt which was written on the back of a spare envelope held against the boats conning tower.

When both subs approached Esquimalt later on, the examination vessel saw the submarines, turned around at full speed and ran into the harbor signaling about a pair of German torpedo boats approaching. Luckily, one of the militia officers commanding the coastal defense guns identified the vessels as looking like British style submarines and ceased fire. Rumor says neither ship had naval ensigns, so pillow cases were raised at their masts. The US Navy would later send out a cruiser in an attempt to track the submarines down but would find nothing. A major political spat would ensue with the Chilean, American and Canadian governments about the purchase but while somewhat underhanded, nothing would eventually come out of the matter as it was legally undertaken. The Royal Navy Lieutenant in partial charge of the operation and a large amount of the planning would eventually have a mental break down and was dismissed from his post. Waiting for orders that never came, being forced to make multiple potentially career ruining decisions in such a short proximity and carrying around a $27 million dollar cheque (converted to 2020 Canadian dollars) took their toll on the poor man. The cheque itself was worth almost three times the budget of the entire RCN from 1913 to 1914. As it turned out the submarines left Seattle with no torpedoes (!) or spare parts. Old torpedoes had to be sent across Canada from Halifax to actually arm the submarines after they were modified to fit. The torpedo techs in Halifax fueled the torpedoes with their compressed air propellent to test them but forgot to let off the compressed air prior to loading, meaning some of the torpedoes air flasks were overpressured for the entire trip across the country by train.

The submarines themselves were originally rejected by the Chilean Navy due to their quality control issues and dangerous diving characteristics. The boats were very susceptible to nose or tail dives when submerging or ascending, ballast tanks had issues with taking in and discharging water efficiently. The main engine cylinder heads could not stand the heat generated by full speed running and they would crack and require replacement after generally 6 hours of running. The submarines had to be effectively stripped down entirely to correct many of these issues. Various valves were damaged and clogged with debris from the construction, items like cleaning rags, wooden planking and even coveralls were found inside the piping systems. All of the internal sacrificial zinc anodes installed in the tanks to reduce corrosion were installed on top of the paintwork with no contact with the metal they were supposed to protect. Hull plating on and near the waterline was frequently pitted and bare of paint. It was eventually found that the steel pressure-hull plating had not been properly treated to limit corrosion/rusting pickled during manufacture. Rivets used on the hull were also low quality and frequently had to be replaced.

The fresh reservist who was plucked from the parade square would be promoted from an Able Seamen all the way to a Sub-Lieutenant for his efforts. Paterson would get a $40k commission from selling the boats in 1914, or $1.027m in 2020. The British Columbia government would be in possession of the submarines for a short period of time before the RCN took them over and eventually covered the expenses in their procurement, making them the only province to have a Navy, unofficially of course. The submarines crews would enter a crash course in training by former Royal Navy submariners who had previously retired to Canada, eventually being put to sea with only weeks of training to patrol. For multiple periods prior to their torpedoes arriving, these boats would patrol for German warships with no armament aboard. While they would never face German warships, they would serve as Canada's first submarines and a pretty comedic showcase of what Canadian procurement can be at its best or worst.

If this was the U.S. there would be many movies made about this by now.
 
Oh I get it! We've debated before my feeling that Canada does not need an expeditionary army.

Anyways

Best Friends Friend GIF by PermissionIO

But a few Marines would improve the tone of the Navy....
 
Except that civilian police officers (it's not just the RCMP - other service contribute under their umbrella) cannot be mandated outside of their county/province. Besides, every copper deployed leaves a vacancy at home and many services, including the RCMP, are already chronically understrength.

So hire more coppers? Create a new overseas Division?

I'm pretty sure that the chunk of the population that reliably supports Trudeau's Liberals, the NDP and the Greens (20-30%) would prefer to hire more Cowboys than Kilties.
 
That's why I would like to see us have 4 AOR's and 2 amphibious landing ships like the Mistrals, even if we gave up two MCDV and a CSC to get them. Run them mostly with RCFA crew. The Mistrals when not doing landing sort of things, can be transports, Command and support ships for things like the pirate mission and provide a place for Allies to repair their helicopters, etc.
You mean like a really big AOPS for overseas deployments?
 
Spoken like a true operator.

Lol

I think it a time of major conventional warfare Logistics is going to be a pillar of victory.

And the ability to get people and material to the fight will be as important as the fight itself.
I don’t disagree. You can’t just be all of one and none of the other.

Perhaps it would have been wiser for me to say Allies want reliably supplied and provisioned forces beside them…
 
You mean like a really big AOPS for overseas deployments?
A Mistral could be a "Mothership" for a whole bunch of smaller Allied vessels, being a place to get away from your crew, maintain the task Force helicopters or provide them (does not have to Canadian helos).
 
A Mistral could be a "Mothership" for a whole bunch of smaller Allied vessels, being a place to get away from your crew, maintain the task Force helicopters or provide them (does not have to Canadian helos).
Maybe, but just spitballing here, unless said allied helicopters are the same model (or really close), having enough spare widgets for 3-4 different types of helicopters may be an issue.
 
A Mistral could be a "Mothership" for a whole bunch of smaller Allied vessels, being a place to get away from your crew, maintain the task Force helicopters or provide them (does not have to Canadian helos).

It is really just a self-propelled island where the laws of Canada prevail.
 
Maybe, but just spitballing here, unless said allied helicopters are the same model (or really close), having enough spare widgets for 3-4 different types of helicopters may be an issue.

Gas station as opposed to Service Station.

Stop off for Gas and a Coffee. Maybe a shower and a cot. You have to go home to be serviced. Or we could call Napa Autoparts and have them Uber the parts to you. :LOL:
 
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