Replacing the Subs

[KevinB]

This is what passes as journalism in Canada today.

French nuclear submarines in Canada?

An important file on the office of the new Defense Minister Anita Anand. Last summer, Ottawa launched a study to purchase patrol submarines. France is on its way to winning this contract. Emmanuel Macron hopes to interview Justin Trudeau on this topic by the end of the year. The French are...

www.vaughantoday.ca

Clearly the blame is on that Beren Petty guy

 

[Good2Golf]

This is what passes as journalism in Canada today.

French nuclear submarines in Canada?

An important file on the office of the new Defense Minister Anita Anand. Last summer, Ottawa launched a study to purchase patrol submarines. France is on its way to winning this contract. Emmanuel Macron hopes to interview Justin Trudeau on this topic by the end of the year. The French are...

www.vaughantoday.ca

Or it’s actually a somewhat better intentional leak by Government than the usual “information provided by an insider at XXXX because they weren’t authorized to comment publicly…” BS.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My take away from that lame article ;

"Quebec could benefit from the economic benefits of such a contract"

Maybe we should call them "baguette d'attaque"

 

[CBH99]

Ahhh yes. the ol' "turn this procurement of 25k into 5 procurments of 5k" model.

No dumber audience than a room full of MP’s who don’t seem to have much connection to the real world…

But that’s not even what I’m suggesting. We include a lot of things in the price tag of our procurements which, in actuality, are NOT part of the procurement at all.

And while they do fall under operating costs, we also include things in this which are duplicate numbers that do not need to be included.

We tend to combine the price of procurement and the price of 20+ yrs of sustainment into a number which makes it seem like ‘buying this capability is just too much money.’

Which then gives the government a much appreciated exit.


If we briefed the MPs of the situation in a way that caught their attention, but we didn’t stack the cards against ourselves in the way that we propose projects, replacing the subs might not be anywhere near as challenging as we make it. (As a DND.)

0.02

 

[dapaterson]

What are not appropriate costs to charge to the capital cost of a project? Name them.

And if you claim "Reg F pay", well, it's clear you're not serious.

 

[Good2Golf]

Post-FOC O&M?

 

[dapaterson]

Bah. Having the funds to operate equipment is overrated.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

By the way, Canada did build subs, out here in BC, during WWI and in the 1980's

Skip to 1:18

 

[lenaitch]

This is what passes as journalism in Canada today.

French nuclear submarines in Canada?

An important file on the office of the new Defense Minister Anita Anand. Last summer, Ottawa launched a study to purchase patrol submarines. France is on its way to winning this contract. Emmanuel Macron hopes to interview Justin Trudeau on this topic by the end of the year. The French are...

www.vaughantoday.ca

Ha-ha. Vaughan Today - the community news for 'The City Above Toronto'. I get a kick out her profile:

“Subtly charming problem solver. Extreme tv enthusiast. Web scholar. Evil beer expert. Music nerd. Food junkie.”​

​

Clearly the path to ensure your articles are taken seriously.

 

[Dale Denton]

Not a bad idea for the French to sell us SSNs. A potential alternative to the SSK limitation in range/under ice or very costly SSNs.

TL;DR - Get French tech for cheap, train with France, UK, US, Australia. Semi-CAUKUS?

Industry/Political factors

• Boosts their nuclear/SSN/SSBN industry that was severely hurt by AUKUS, gives us a cheap deal to repair its image, brownie points with the French. Potential is there for this to make us a full or semi-member of AUKUS.
• Build in a domestic nuclear energy plan to support industry, maybe fund smaller reactors for a temporary cleaner energy until other sources are found/funded.
• Add additional academic/university involvement for industry and RCN recruitment and R&D.
• A supposedly cheaper alternative to buying Astutes or Virginia Class ships, used Subs are no longer an option politically, and Suffrens are better than SSKs that probably won't be of too much use in the Pacific or under-ice due to range and any other factors.
• Show how expensive it can be for us to build it at home, taking a shot at Australia while learning from their experiences.
• Build in higher IRBs due to the build to be likely all French (more on that further down).

Personnel

• They offer to train RCN crews and potential mixed French/Canadian crews for the next while. Send RCN sailors to train with AUKUS crews in weapons and similar systems we'll add to our variant.
• Start a new recruitment and retention pilot project starting with SSN/RCN trades. Listen to industry in how to keep people happy. Properly fund the project so it throws benefits and salary at anyone willing to join the sub service.

Build Timelines

• Casabianca, the 6th and last Suffren is to be launched in 2028 (wiki), maybe neatly slot-in 6-8 RCN variants at the tail end?
• Casabianca is set to be laid down in 2023, and all previous subs have been laid down every 4 years , so we could set to have our 1st RCN Suffren-variant SSN laid down as early as 2027.
• They sell is as a package that the build at least X number in France (if not all), but selecting a Canadian yard to build some will take years of dogfighting in an industry already rife with it - simply to pick the yard.
• Plus there would be a large gap between the French built and the first Canadian built.
• This gets even worse since this is waaay out of our industrial wheelhouse, and would really skyrocket with our procurement design.

Yes, it's a very short time (esp for us) to add enough products with sufficient IRBs in order to meet the 2027 laid down deadline. Its a pipe-dream non-starter ya ya...

 

[CBH99]

What are not appropriate costs to charge to the capital cost of a project? Name them.

And if you claim "Reg F pay", well, it's clear you're not serious.

Would I ever expect submarines - regardless of conventional or nuclear - to be crewed be reservists!? (No disrespect to reservists!)



I’m going to start posting from my old phone and PC again.

That post above wasn’t supposed to post. I had it about half written, and was going expand once a few things before actually posting.

This new work phone is a Samsung, and I’m still getting the hang of it. I’m liking the phone more and more, but it isn’t as user friendly as my old iPhone was.


Allow me to edit later tonight or tomorrow, that wasnt supposed to post just yet.

(Nor my post in Victoria’s crime thread, it posted a few days after I had thought I posted it. Tech issues here lads.)

 

[MilEME09]

Would I ever expect submarines - regardless of conventional or nuclear - to be crewed be reservists!? (No disrespect to reservists!)



I’m going to start posting from my old phone and PC again.

That post above wasn’t supposed to post. I had it about half written, and was going expand once a few things before actually posting.

This new work phone is a Samsung, and I’m still getting the hang of it. I’m liking the phone more and more, but it isn’t as user friendly as my old iPhone was.


Allow me to edit later tonight or tomorrow, that wasnt supposed to post just yet.

(Nor my post in Victoria’s crime thread, it posted a few days after I had thought I posted it. Tech issues here lads.)

There would be key positions that would have to be Reg F, others that likely could be NavRes, remember the Res Force in the Navy and Air force are handled vastly different from how the army treats, and uses the Ares.

 

[CBH99]

Truth be told I’ve been in and out of hospital all week, and by Monday I am looking at the potential loss of approximately 65% of my leg. I’ll know by Friday - I will either be totally fine, or finally have a good excuse to skip leg day for a while.

I distinctly remember writing a post about an article, and I am now almost convinced it must have been a dream. Because I can’t even Google the situation the article was about.

I may go into reading mode soon also. I feel like you only have energy for about 20 minutes at a time and it’s back to resting.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hope all goes well

 

[KevinB]

Bah. Having the funds to operate equipment is overrated.

That should come out of O&M not Acquisition.

While I don't think the US DoD is the shining example of efficiencies - the cost of the acquisition is the capital equipment itself - not the PM shops, the Requirement Staff, and when the items are fielded, they now become the owners responsiblity.
Now some contracts due have X years Parts and Maintenance on them, but that goes to the receiver O&M - not the project itself.

The staff is getting paid regardless of what project they work on.
The Field Force needs to maintain and operate the equipment it has - regardless of what equipment it is.

The way the CF looks at acquisitions, I am legitimately surprised that the Ferret scout car and M4 Sherman aren't still plodding around.

 

[Dana381]

Not a bad idea for the French to sell us SSNs. A potential alternative to the SSK limitation in range/under ice or very costly SSNs.

TL;DR - Get French tech for cheap, train with France, UK, US, Australia. Semi-CAUKUS?

Industry/Political factors

• Boosts their nuclear/SSN/SSBN industry that was severely hurt by AUKUS, gives us a cheap deal to repair its image, brownie points with the French. Potential is there for this to make us a full or semi-member of AUKUS.
• Build in a domestic nuclear energy plan to support industry, maybe fund smaller reactors for a temporary cleaner energy until other sources are found/funded.
• Add additional academic/university involvement for industry and RCN recruitment and R&D.
• A supposedly cheaper alternative to buying Astutes or Virginia Class ships, used Subs are no longer an option politically, and Suffrens are better than SSKs that probably won't be of too much use in the Pacific or under-ice due to range and any other factors.
• Show how expensive it can be for us to build it at home, taking a shot at Australia while learning from their experiences.
• Build in higher IRBs due to the build to be likely all French (more on that further down).

Personnel

• They offer to train RCN crews and potential mixed French/Canadian crews for the next while. Send RCN sailors to train with AUKUS crews in weapons and similar systems we'll add to our variant.
• Start a new recruitment and retention pilot project starting with SSN/RCN trades. Listen to industry in how to keep people happy. Properly fund the project so it throws benefits and salary at anyone willing to join the sub service.

Build Timelines

• Casabianca, the 6th and last Suffren is to be launched in 2028 (wiki), maybe neatly slot-in 6-8 RCN variants at the tail end?
• Casabianca is set to be laid down in 2023, and all previous subs have been laid down every 4 years , so we could set to have our 1st RCN Suffren-variant SSN laid down as early as 2027.
• They sell is as a package that the build at least X number in France (if not all), but selecting a Canadian yard to build some will take years of dogfighting in an industry already rife with it - simply to pick the yard.
• Plus there would be a large gap between the French built and the first Canadian built.
• This gets even worse since this is waaay out of our industrial wheelhouse, and would really skyrocket with our procurement design.

Yes, it's a very short time (esp for us) to add enough products with sufficient IRBs in order to meet the 2027 laid down deadline. Its a pipe-dream non-starter ya ya...

I think there is a lot of good reasons to buy the French nuclear subs but I wonder if we can?

The CAF spent billions converting the Vic's to use U.S. torpedos because they have a bunch in storage that would be scrap if they didn't convert the Vic's.
I'm sure there is other changes we will want to make to Canadianize them likely using U.S. or British tech. Will the U.S. allow the French to have access to their tech?

If the U.S. doesn't allow the French access to the we would have to buy the sub shell and install the tech here and that sounds too much like Victoria deja vu. I really think if we do go with SSN's we need to buy complete mature designs. Save the Canadianizing for later when we get familiar with the new subs and their capabilities. Sign and drive! How can the French train us to operate them if we replace multiple systems with our own stuff? We are already familiar with the torpedos so maybe they can be built from the start for the U.S. torpedos (If the U.S. allows it) but the rest of the sub should be left alone.

 

[JMCanada]

Truth be told I’ve been in and out of hospital all week, (...)

I may go into reading mode soon also. I feel like you only have energy for about 20 minutes at a time and it’s back to resting.

Take your rests, wish you get good news tomorrow.

 

[GR66]

Truth be told I’ve been in and out of hospital all week, and by Monday I am looking at the potential loss of approximately 65% of my leg. I’ll know by Friday - I will either be totally fine, or finally have a good excuse to skip leg day for a while.

I distinctly remember writing a post about an article, and I am now almost convinced it must have been a dream. Because I can’t even Google the situation the article was about.

I may go into reading mode soon also. I feel like you only have energy for about 20 minutes at a time and it’s back to resting.

Take care...hope things go the right way for you.

 

[Happy Guy]

Some information regarding the hard choices that the RAN must make regarding the decision to nuclear. Eitherway, the Collins Class is expected to last sometime 2048, by which time hopefully their first nuclear submarine will arrive, with the infrastructure in place and sailors trained.

Despite the need for clear nuclear submarines for Canada, the Government will reject this option as they would consider the cost as too exorbitant. The Liberals, NDP, Green Party and the Bloc will automatically reject it out of hand because of nuclear power. They tend to equate nuclear with nuclear weapons, of which Canada doesn't have any.

Cheers

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Some information regarding the hard choices that the RAN must make regarding the decision to nuclear. Eitherway, the Collins Class is expected to last sometime 2048, by which time hopefully their first nuclear submarine will arrive, with the infrastructure in place and sailors trained.

Despite the need for clear nuclear submarines for Canada, the Government will reject this option as they would consider the cost as too exorbitant. The Liberals, NDP, Green Party and the Bloc will automatically reject it out of hand because of nuclear power. They tend to equate nuclear with nuclear weapons, of which Canada doesn't have any.

Cheers

You mean “have nuclear weapons, anymore” (yeah, I know it is a quibble that the weapons were US owned…).