Replacing the Subs

[Czech_pivo]

I agree but nevertheless Seaspan says they have capacity and a trained workforce. Hopefully politics don't take priority over common sense.

Someone should ask them to work backwards from 2035 and ask them how a sub will be built by them and turned over to the RCN by that date. It certainly would not pass the smell test.

 

[KevinB]

Admittedly I’m mainly following AUKUS since my wife is involved, but looking at the timelines — IF Canada was to consider joining the modern SSN kids with AUKUS, like the Aussies there would be a significant pipeline requirement for crews.

Which from OS reports looks sort of like:
1) Training
2) OJT on USN boats
3) Split Crewing of boats
4) Pure Crewing of ‘leased’ boats.
5) AUKUS boats being operational in the Navy.

Then there is domestic infrastructure.

I suspect that 2045 is a realistic time frame for if Canada was to get involved before there would be a AUKUS with a Canadian home port, and 2065 before a 8-12 fleet was reached.

 

[Underway]

Prior to the P-8 vs “Bombardier paper airplane” debacle, I’d agree.

Debacle? It was barely a debate. If the only people talking about it are us here on this forum and a few paniky readers of Hill times its a non-issue.

 

[medicineman]

I suspect that 2045 is a realistic time frame for if Canada was to get involved before there would be a AUKUS with a Canadian home port, and 2065 before a 8-12 fleet was reached.

So in time for WW IV then...if we're still standing?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Admittedly I’m mainly following AUKUS since my wife is involved, but looking at the timelines — IF Canada was to consider joining the modern SSN kids with AUKUS, like the Aussies there would be a significant pipeline requirement for crews.

Which from OS reports looks sort of like:
1) Training
2) OJT on USN boats
3) Split Crewing of boats
4) Pure Crewing of ‘leased’ boats.
5) AUKUS boats being operational in the Navy.

Then there is domestic infrastructure.

I suspect that 2045 is a realistic time frame for if Canada was to get involved before there would be a AUKUS with a Canadian home port, and 2065 before a 8-12 fleet was reached.

Interesting point about infrastructure.

HMC Dockyard Halifax isn't the worlds largest Navy Yard. Shearwater only has 1 jetty.

I wonder, if we got into AUKUS, where we would park the nuke boats ?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Interesting point about infrastructure.

HMC Dockyard Halifax isn't the worlds largest Navy Yard. Shearwater only has 1 jetty.

I wonder, if we got into AUKUS, where we would park the nuke boats ?

Cape Breton?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Cape Breton?

That's an idea!

Would it be beneficial to put them close to an already operating nuclear reactor? Point Lepreau, New Brunswick ?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That's an idea!

Would it be beneficial to put them close to an already operating nuclear reactor? Point Lepreau, New Brunswick ?

Genius.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Genius.

I really have no idea, I just figured there may be some already existing specific support services they could tie into.

 

[NavyShooter]

Re-invigorate NAD on the 'Dark Side' of the harbour, rebuild the old periscope shop that was over there, and setup some new buildings. Presto - sub base. And it's in Dartmouth where subs are allowed to park already anyhow.

 

[DBNSG]

Cape Breton?

I was thinking The mainland side of the Canso Straight. Deep waters and safely away from population centers but close to Port Hawkesbury airport for Cyclone escort flights

 

[Czech_pivo]

Re-invigorate NAD on the 'Dark Side' of the harbour, rebuild the old periscope shop that was over there, and setup some new buildings. Presto - sub base. And it's in Dartmouth where subs are allowed to park already anyhow.

General interest question here.
IF a miracle occurs and we do get 15 CSC and 12 Subs, along with the 6 AOPS and say 10 new under 2k ton Kingston replacements and for argument sake, a pair of AOR's for each coast. Does Halifax have enough pier space available for 50% of the above? Can it accommodate all that? Yes I'm aware that in WWII our navy was substantially larger, but the size of those ships (in terms of sheer length) compares to 150m CSC is not apple to apples.

 

[Underway]

I believe that we can accommodate that many ships even of that size. Some will have to nest for sure. Right now just about every ship gets full jetty access, that won't be the case if we have 8 CSC, 6 Subs and 2 AOR and 6 Corvettes in Halifax. There is also the Ammo Jetty in a pinch, and the DND property across the harbour with the wooden peir that could be (should be) revitalized.

There was a new jetty built for the AOPS which is quite large.

More to the question can we get enough parking for all the new sailors and support staff that would be required. Answer... no.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I believe that we can accommodate that many ships even of that size. Some will have to nest for sure. Right now just about every ship gets full jetty access, that won't be the case if we have 8 CSC, 6 Subs and 2 AOR and 6 Corvettes in Halifax. There is also the Ammo Jetty in a pinch, and the DND property across the harbour with the wooden peir that could be (should be) revitalized.

There was a new jetty built for the AOPS which is quite large.

More to the question can we get enough parking for all the new sailors and support staff that would be required. Answer... no.

So, with that in mind, what are the chances, if we do get all these ships, of a new RCN base being stood up or being a 'mixed' facility with the CCG, say having the AOPS being stationed in St. John's?

What about the west coast, Esquimalt? Can it handle the same about of vessels? Is there a potential secondary facility that can be used on the West Coast?

Will the lack of potential mooring berths in Halifax and/or Esquimalt be the ultimate decision factor on the size of fleet the RCN gets?

 

[Stoker]

General interest question here.
IF a miracle occurs and we do get 15 CSC and 12 Subs, along with the 6 AOPS and say 10 new under 2k ton Kingston replacements and for argument sake, a pair of AOR's for each coast. Does Halifax have enough pier space available for 50% of the above? Can it accommodate all that? Yes I'm aware that in WWII our navy was substantially larger, but the size of those ships (in terms of sheer length) compares to 150m CSC is not apple to apples.

What you are talking about is 20 to 30 years away. Plenty of time to build new jetties if needed. We have NAD and shearwater which has the space to accommodate new jetties. How about fretting about more important things like having these projects fully funded and even enough sailors.....

 

[Stoker]

So, with that in mind, what are the chances, if we do get all these ships, of a new RCN base being stood up or being a 'mixed' facility with the CCG, say having the AOPS being stationed in St. John's?

What about the west coast, Esquimalt? Can it handle the same about of vessels? Is there a potential secondary facility that can be used on the West Coast?

Will the lack of potential mooring berths in Halifax and/or Esquimalt be the ultimate decision factor on the size of fleet the RCN gets?

AOPS in St.John's unless its the CG ones no. WC has plenty of areas they can utilize for docking of ships and they have space to build more infrastructure if needed. No available jetty space won't be a factor as previously mentioned we have enough room currently.

 

[Halifax Tar]

General interest question here.
IF a miracle occurs and we do get 15 CSC and 12 Subs, along with the 6 AOPS and say 10 new under 2k ton Kingston replacements and for argument sake, a pair of AOR's for each coast. Does Halifax have enough pier space available for 50% of the above? Can it accommodate all that? Yes I'm aware that in WWII our navy was substantially larger, but the size of those ships (in terms of sheer length) compares to 150m CSC is not apple to apples.

Not unless our jetties get a massive overhaul to structure, size and offered services.

 

[Czech_pivo]

What you are talking about is 20 to 30 years away. Plenty of time to build new jetties if needed. We have NAD and shearwater which has the space to accommodate new jetties. How about fretting about more important things like having these projects fully funded and even enough sailors.....

I understand what your saying. Yes the timeline is a long one but when I look at our track record over the last 30yrs in procuring or building things, I see very very few 'wins' in terms of the meeting of deadlines.

I'll just site 2 examples:
1) Replace the CH-124 - announced in 1993 - killed and then resurrected 2003 and the first one delivered in 2018, has the final one been delivered yet or is it still outstanding? - 1993 to 2024 - 31yrs to deliver

2) Nanisivik - - announced in 2007 - potentially to being in use in 2025 - 18yrs later

 

[Halifax Tar]

I understand what your saying. Yes the timeline is a long one but when I look at our track record over the last 30yrs in procuring or building things, I see very very few 'wins' in terms of the meeting of deadlines.

I'll just site 2 examples:
1) Replace the CH-124 - announced in 1993 - killed and then resurrected 2003 and the first one delivered in 2018, has the final one been delivered yet or is it still outstanding? - 1993 to 2024 - 31yrs to deliver

2) Nanisivik - - announced in 2007 - potentially to being in use in 2025 - 18yrs later

I've been in 25 years and the only jetties I have seen built is the new for the AOPs, which incidentally is already having structural problems.

 

[Stoker]

I understand what your saying. Yes the timeline is a long one but when I look at our track record over the last 30yrs in procuring or building things, I see very very few 'wins' in terms of the meeting of deadlines.

I'll just site 2 examples:
1) Replace the CH-124 - announced in 1993 - killed and then resurrected 2003 and the first one delivered in 2018, has the final one been delivered yet or is it still outstanding? - 1993 to 2024 - 31yrs to deliver

2) Nanisivik - - announced in 2007 - potentially to being in use in 2025 - 18yrs later

Rest assured as discussed by others we currently have enough room on both coasts and room to grow if required. I personally would be more concerned about have enough dry docking capability for future fleet.

As an aside you are discussing a helo program and a build in the Arctic. Both of which had variables such as elections, political interference, site remediation, Covid and environmental considerations. Some avoidable and many not. All discussed at length here.