Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

The optimist in me thinks if it was a holiday, there would be more potential for people to attend ceremonies and become engaged in remembering. 

The pessimist in me thinks it would eventually become another long weekend for people to take in sales. 

 

[Pat in Halifax]

The optimist in me thinks if it was a holiday, there would be more potential for people to attend ceremonies and become engaged in remembering. 

The pessimist in me thinks it would eventually become another long weekend for people to take in sales. 

I hate to say but fear you are indeed correct. That said, I notice a much more diverse (and younger) crowd at ceremonies. Maybe this generation may embrace this more???...maybe?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I hate to say but fear you are indeed correct. That said, I notice a much more diverse (and younger) crowd at ceremonies. Maybe this generation may embrace this more???...maybe?

I'll be interested to see the size and make-up of today's crowd compared to other years, given it's a Sunday - nobody has the excuse NOT to go.

Mind you, this is Thunder Bay, where the crowds are split 3 ways for Remembrance Day ceremonies, but that's a whole other add-on to the Legion thread....  :

 

[Loachman]

No.

 

[Journeyman]

No, it's not required.

(Of course, it wouldn't be a 'holiday' for those of us in uniform anyway)  :remembrance:

 

[cphansen]

No not a national holiday,  I prefer it the way it is when the observers have to make a personal effort to remeber.  On Remeberence Day,  I like the way some drivers pull over to the side and just stop for two minutes as a mark of respect.  The world may be asking us to keep going and rush rush rush but two minutes can be found to show respect.

Unfortunately, I will be staying in today because of knee problems, I will be watching the national ceremonies and thinking of family friends who participated.

I'll think of people like Frode Nielson of Sawyerville, Quebec, who came to Canada in the twenties from Denmark, worked as a farm hand and managed to achieve his life's desire to have a farm of his own free and clear.  When the war started he dropped everything to enlist in RCEME.  He became a dispatch rider, was mentioned in dispatches a couple of times and survived the war.  He came home and started up again with his farm and his beloved horses.

I think of Maj Smart, who fought the Japanesse in Burma, survived and emigrated to Canada.  Until his dying day,  he despised the Japanese.

I was a Sherbrooke Hussar and was on the strength of "C" Squadron when we had an armoury in Bury Quebec.  I used to read the names on the memorial there to myself, There were 30 names from the Royal Rifles of Canada, who were all individuals who had tranfered from the strength of the 7/11 Hussars and were lost in Hong Kong.

Then there were the casualites from the war in Europe from The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment  over 220 of them.  I used to look at those names on an plaque in the officer's mess and wish the plaque was in the Drill Hall,  where the names could read and honoured by the current members of the regiment.

I also think of individuals like my father who were in the underground in Denmark and managed to survive.  I think of people I know who were concentration camp survivors and were only alive because the war ended.

Somehow we have a lot to remember and be grateful for.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Do you agree with Remembrance Day becoming a National Holiday?

I fully support it!

I think it is definitely time for us to honour those who fought for a better world, us, and our freedom in a better way and died along the journey.

As well as those veterans who did the same, and lost their friends along the way.

What do you mean by "National Holiday"?

Do you want it recognized and proclaimed a holiday by the federal government?  Well, it already is.  See Holidays Act R.S.C., 1985, c. H-5

Remembrance Day

3. November 11, being the day in the year 1918 on which the Great War was triumphantly concluded by an armistice, is a holiday and shall be kept and observed as such throughout Canada under the name of "Remembrance Day".

Or is your complaint that you live in a province where you do not automatically have the day off with pay to do as you please?  Well, that's not a "national" problem, but is dealt with by labour and employment legislation, regulations and standards.  While Remembrance Day is a national holiday and included in the the Canada Labour Code as one of the "general holidays" (i.e. paid holidays), that federal legislation is applicable, in essence, only to federal employees and those whose industries are regulated by the federal government.  The Federal Government does not (and can not) dictate to the provinces how to regulate employment practices in their jurisdictions.

Or is your complaint that there are businesses open during the hours when Remembrance ceremonies are traditionally held?  Again, that's within individual provincial jurisdiction.

Since it is already a "National Holiday" (i.e. so proclaimed in federal legislation which is the most that the federal government can do), what is your complaint and what do you want to happen?

 

[X Royal]

I feel it should be a national statutory holiday. In Ontario it's not a holiday unless you work in a federally regulated industry or have a negotiated day off.
As it sits now unlike this year if Nov. 11th is on a week day I'm at work and not at the cenotaph.
I also believe that it should be a day that is observed on the day it falls and not one which can be moved to create a long weekend.
Some form off of compensation should be allowed for those required to work on the 11th.
When I was in I don't recall working on the 11th. Yes a mandatory Resemblance Day parade but I don't consider that work.
Only time I worked on the 11th was on UN tour or when recalled for standby security after the train derailment in Mississauga.

 

[392]

When I was in I don't recall working on the 11th. Yes a mandatory Resemblance Day parade but I don't consider that work.
Only time I worked on the 11th was on UN tour or when recalled for standby security after the train derailment in Mississauga.

Most likely because Nov 11th is on the list of Stat holidays in the leave regulations  I don't consider 11 Nov a leave day, but I don't consider it work either. Kind of fits somewhere in the middle in the grey area...

 

[SMG III]

What do you mean by "National Holiday"?

Do you want it recognized and proclaimed a holiday by the federal government?  Well, it already is.  See Holidays Act R.S.C., 1985, c. H-5
Or is your complaint that you live in a province where you do not automatically have the day off with pay to do as you please?  Well, that's not a "national" problem, but is dealt with by labour and employment legislation, regulations and standards.  While Remembrance Day is a national holiday and included in the the Canada Labour Code as one of the "general holidays" (i.e. paid holidays), that federal legislation is applicable, in essence, only to federal employees and those whose industries are regulated by the federal government.  The Federal Government does not (and can not) dictate to the provinces how to regulate employment practices in their jurisdictions.

Or is your complaint that there are businesses open during the hours when Remembrance ceremonies are traditionally held?  Again, that's within individual provincial jurisdiction.

Since it is already a "National Holiday" (i.e. so proclaimed in federal legislation which is the most that the federal government can do), what is your complaint and what do you want to happen?

I am NOT complaining I don't get the day off. I am in Air Cadets, and soon to be the military. I get the day off to go to the parade, and I think that others should too. Businesses should be closed, people should participate.

I don't get how it's a "national holiday", when people work and businesses are open throughout the whole day. If we can make time to celebrate a new year which means nothing, why not remember those who fell for us?

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . . . I get the day off to go to the parade, and I think that others should too. Businesses should be closed, people should participate.

I don't get how it's a "national holiday", when people work and businesses are open throughout the whole day. If we can make time to celebrate a new year which means nothing, why not remember those who fell for us?

It's a "national holiday" because the Government of Canada passed legislation that said it was a holiday.  Howevr, that law does not mandate it as a day off work nor does it mandate the closure of businesses on that day; there is other legislation that designates such (for federal employees and industries) and even then it cannot (constitutionally) dictate how individual provinces will observe the day.  According to that same law (Holidays Act) so are Canada Day and Victoria Day.  Of course, there is no legal compulsion to perform any act of celebration or remembrance on those specific days.  We are not, after all, a totalitarian state.  Personally, I rarely celebrate Canada Day as a national birthday party (though I am not so stupid as to pass up a day off or avoid the consumption of alcoholic beverages with jovial companions - I have a similar policy re beverages on Remembrance Day).  My first thoughts of July 1 is as "Memorial Day" - that was a Newfoundland "national" day of remembrance for our war dead.  The acceptance of that day to honour our fallen predates "Armistice Day".

Since there are provinces that have legislation making Remembrance Day either a holiday, or a day of observance, or some other day that permits or encourages the closure of schools and workplaces as well in some jurisdictions mandates the closure of businesses and restricts the sale of alcohol until after remembrance ceremonies, it seems that your complaint is with your province.  Even if it did become a holiday in your jurisdiction, what makes you think that those who do not participate now would be flocking to services on Nov 11.

I can't speak much specifically to how the day was observed in years long past except for Newfoundland (and even then I'm not as old as some of the codgers who frequent this forum).  However, even though it wasn't a "holiday", shop closing was common.  The business activity of the day was often regulated to be the same as a Sunday (back in the stone age there was no such thing as shopping on Sunday).  At one time in Newfoundland, the November day of remembrance was (I believe) similar to the United Kingdom - the public ceremonies were on the nearest Sunday.  The closeness to and eventual Confederation with Canada was probably why that changed.  If one did some research there would probably be a correlation between changes in public activities (stores open, etc . . .) on Remembrance Day with changes to Sunday shopping.

Personally, as a traditionalist, I see no need to change how we either regulate or commemorate Remembrance Day.  Well, actually, I would prefer to see more remembrance and less of the "hero worship" that seems to be in vogue, but that will probably fade away like most fashions.  It would have made sense (in years past) if we had followed the UK practice of Remembrance Sunday but since that is not now our tradition, it should not be changed.

 

[ModlrMike]

:goodpost:

 

[X Royal]

It's a "national holiday" because the Government of Canada passed legislation that said it was a holiday.

I never seen such legislation.
Yes it is a recognized statutory holiday for those places subject to federal labour rules.
For those not subject to the federal rules they fall under the provincial jurisdictions. Here you may or may not have Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday.
A national holiday by definition would apply to the whole nation.
Remembrance Day does not meet this definition.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I never seen such legislation.

Holidays Act ~ well, now you have.

Yes it is a recognized statutory holiday for those places subject to federal labour rules. Yep
For those not subject to the federal rules they fall under the provincial jurisdictions. Here you may or may not have Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday. Yep, again
A national holiday by definition would apply to the whole nation. Nope, see Holidays Act
Remembrance Day does not meet this definition. Yes it does. That pesky Holidays Act srikes again!

 

[X Royal]

E. R. Campbell The Holiday Act in respect to Remembrance Day does not apply to most Ontario workers (aprox 90%) as the Provincial legislation over rules it.
Any Act that can be over ruled by Provincial legislation is therefore not National in scope.

By the way if you actually read the Holidays Act you will be able to note something.
Remembrance Day is listed as a holiday as opposed to Canada Day and Victoria Day which are listed as legal holidays.
When it comes to laws one missing word in the legislation can completely change the meaning of the law.

In the future if you feel the need to quote me please keep your comments out of the quote box bearing my name. Feel free to answer each point separately but outside the box bearing my name.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In the future if you feel the need to quote me please keep your comments out of the quote box bearing my name. Feel free to answer each point separately but outside the box bearing my name.

That particular form of discussion has been an accepted way of doing things here since Day One. It will likely remains so.

Feel free to request accomodation from other posters, but don't demand, as they have no responsibility to comply with you.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Nice to see ERC and XRoyal talking at each other, but both missing each other's points .

In fact, XRoyal: ERC is correct to point out that the Holidays Act is federal legislation that declares Remembrance day a Holiday. Thus it is a National holiday, as opposed to one that would exist in only one province or a single Town (which would be Provincial or Municipal holidays).

However ERC, XRoyal's nuance is quite astute: the designation of Victoria day and Canada day as legal holidays is extremely important because all Provinces and territories have legislation, from their Labour codes, Labour standards acts, Financial Markets legislation etc, all the way to the Business Hours acts, that provide for what is permitted or how you are paid or employed on a day declared a legal holiday. It is that specific designation in the Federal Holidays act that triggers the consequences we all know on V. Day and C. Day across the whole of Canada.

If the act was only amended to add "legal" before the word holiday in the paragraph that refers to Remembrance day, all the same consequences would immediately ensue across Canada.

 

[Blackadder1916]

However ERC, XRoyal's nuance is quite astute: the designation of Victoria day and Canada day as legal holidays is extremely important because all Provinces and territories have legislation, from their Labour codes, Labour standards acts, Financial Markets legislation etc, all the way to the Business Hours acts, that provide for what is permitted or how you are paid or employed on a day declared a legal holiday. It is that specific designation in the Federal Holidays act that triggers the consequences we all know on V. Day and C. Day across the whole of Canada.

If the act was only amended to add "legal" before the word holiday in the paragraph that refers to Remembrance day, all the same consequences would immediately ensue across Canada.

The word "legal" triggers nothing of the sort.  My supposition is that the disparate wording of the Holidays Act likely came about by the amalgamation (years ago) of separate statutes/amendments.  The Holidays Act also doesn't confer any requirement (paid days off, commitment to commemorate, etc) other than to acknowledge those specific dates as the ones to be used for those purposes.  If, as you contend, use of the word "legal" demands Victoria Day be a paid holiday in all provinces, why is it not a public holiday in Newfoundland?
The public holidays in NL according to their Labor Standards Act are:
http://assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/l02.htm#14_

Meaning of "public holiday"

      14. (1) In this Part, "public holiday" means

            (a)  New Year's Day;

            (b)  Good Friday;

          (b.1)  Remembrance Day;

            (c)  Memorial Day;

            (d)  Labour Day;

            (e)  Christmas Day; and

              (f)  other days that may be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council as a public holiday for the purpose of this Act.

You will also note that Canada Day is not on that list, but Memorial Day falls on the same date.  The sub-para listing Remembrance Day (note the odd numbering) was an amendment that was added in 2001.


Edited to add

In all fairness I should acknowledge that there is other NL legislation that has additional days of "holidays" including Victoria Day (but they are only for the purpose of that other act).

Shops' Closing Act
http://assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/s15.htm

Holidays

        4. (1) For the purpose of this Act, the following days are holidays:

            (a)  in all areas of the province,

                      (i)  Easter Sunday,
                    (ii)  Labour Day,
                    (iii)  Thanksgiving Day,
                    (iv)  Remembrance Day (November 11),
                    (v)  Christmas Day,
                    (vi)  Boxing Day,
                  (vii)  New Year's Day,
                  (viii)  Good Friday,
                    (ix)  Victoria Day, and
                    (x)  Memorial Day or Canada Day (July 1);

            (b)  in all areas of the province a day that may be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to be observed as a public holiday, or as a day of general mourning;

            (c)  in a particular municipality, other than the City of St. John's and the Town of Harbour Grace, 1 day in each year, which the council of that municipality may fix as a public holiday;

            (d)  in the City of St. John's, the day in each year ultimately determined, in the manner prescribed by custom, for the St. John's Annual Regatta; and

            (e)  in the Town of Harbour Grace , the day in each year ultimately determined, in the manner prescribed by custom, for the Harbour Grace Annual Regatta.

            (2)  Victoria Day shall be celebrated in the province on the 1st Monday immediately preceding May 25.

            (3)  Labour Day shall be celebrated in the province on the 1st Monday in September.

            (4)  [Rep. by 2001 c13 s1]

            (5)  Thanksgiving Day shall be celebrated on the Monday in October that is proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for the observation of that day.

            (6)  [Rep. by 2001 c42 s41]

Only the holidays in the Labour Standards Act are paid holidays and the Shops' Closing Act applies only to "shops" (i.e.,  the part of a premises or a place in which or from which a wholesale or retail trade or business is carried on), however it is likely that other businesses may close on those days.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with the latest from an NDP MP to make November 11th a national holiday:

Fresh off a national outpouring of support for Canadian troops in Afghanistan, a private member’s bill to be introduced Wednesday in the House of Commons calls for Remembrance Day to be recognized as a national statutory holiday.

New Democrat MP Dan Harris expects to table a bill that would establish a cross-country standard to treat Nov. 11 as a national statutory holiday. Currently, a hodgepodge of provincial legislation marks Remembrance Day across Canada.

Various Conservatives, NDP and Liberal MPs have expressed support for either making Remembrance Day a paid statutory holiday, or at least further examining the issue. However, Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino has said he does not believe Nov. 11 needs to be a formal holiday to mark its importance and have Canadians pay their respects.

Currently, several provinces, representing more than half of Canada’s population — Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba and Nova Scotia — do not recognize Remembrance Day as an official paid statutory holiday.

But the rest of the provinces and territories — British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut — do mark it as a paid general holiday.

In all cases, there is differing legislation on how the day affects business hours and workers ....

 

[CougarKing]

Thoughts, anyone?

Andy Radia Canadian Politics column/Yahoo News

Following soldier slayings, renewed interest in making Remembrance Day a national holiday
By Andy Radia | Canada Politics – 23 hours ago

Every November, it seems, a debate rages about whether or not Remembrance Day should be a national holiday.

Currently, people in Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have to work on Nov. 11.

Well, Dan Harris, the NDP MP for Scarborough Southwest, hopes to put an end to that debate once and for all.

Harris is the latest member of Parliament to introduce a private member's bill to make Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday to be treated just like Canada Day.

That bill – Bill C-597 – will be debated in the House of Commons for the first time Monday evening.

In a telephone interview with Yahoo Canada News, Harris argued that all Canadians should have the opportunity to go their local cenotaphs on Nov. 11th to pay their respects to the veterans who have risked and lost their lives in service to our country.

"Every year at the cenotaph in Scarborough there’s always some people who can’t make it because they have to work," he told Yahoo Canada News.

He notes that the recent deadly attacks against two Canadian soldiers in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa have certainly given the issue more profile.

(...SNIPPED)

One of the arguments against having Remembrance Day as a national holiday is that instead of using it as a day to commemorate our veterans, many Canadians will use it to sleep-in, shop, or go skiing and war becomes the furthest thing from their minds.

The dissenters ask a valid question: do Canadians really think about the labour movement’s sacrifices on Labour Day?

(...SNIPPED)