Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition

[Altair]

Unless you plan to read academia, most entertainers and artists, and the left-supporting media out of the mainstream, there's no escaping from the reality that the mainstream is quite happy with manipulating and suppressing information to tell all stories a certain way and to punish those who express other views.

While this belongs in it the other thread, this does not change the fact that you would believe that most left leaners are vile.

Which would be akin to me believing all those on the right are racists or those with white supremacist views because of what Tucker Carlson says on Fox.

That would be nonsense though, and I obviously wouldn't do that.

And it detracts from the logical conclusion we should be coming to.

There exists a segment of society, in this case the far right, who are radicalizing people and some, not all, but some of those people are seeking to do harm to others. There are others on the far left who are radicalizing people as well, but to date they do not have a comparable documented body count that the far right has racked up.

One can look at the far right and radical islam in the same light.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Islam, or Islamism? One’s a religion, while the other is a political ideology/movement. Numerous references, so won’t pick one specifically, but I would say that you have identified your concern regarding Islamism, not the religion itself. None of my Muslim friends who follow Islam are anything other than respectful members of our society who peacefully follow a particular religion.

No?

Regards
G2G

The Muslim population is the sea the fish swim in. We are specifically talking about Sunni Muslims who are at the highest risk of been coerced by the radical element. To a lesser extent you see the same thing in the Shia community by the 12th Imaners or IRGC types, although that is by far more of a political agenda wrapped in a religious blanket. I will exclude devout Sufi's and Ismaili from this equation. Sunni Islam as currently preached by most schools of thought is tightly interwoven with political and religious aims. In fact if you look at the Meccan vs Medina verses, you can see the evolution of Muhammad's political thinking. Also by Islamic jurisprudence, the latter verses abrogate the earlier verses whenever there is a conflict in messaging. (Most of the peaceful Islam is in the Meccan and most of the war like is in the Medina era)

 

[Brad Sallows]

Yet in Canada Islam isn't trying to put in place any of their laws or doctrines.

They don't speak with much authority. When I want to know about Catholicism, I look to the Vatican.

 

[Altair]

When the Sunni Muslim population reaches a critical mass, then the radicals begin to exert their pressure on the rest, they take the long view.

Yet I look to Europe, and places with large Muslim populations, and while there are tensions in places, the large majority of Muslims work within a countries framework and are not seeking to curtail rights of other muslims or native born Europeans.

So this is completely false to me. I think you need to separate political islam and islam as the religion. Some despots are using the religion as the cover to do the stupid stuff they do, and there are the people who just worship their god, and follow their customs and do not do anything beyond that.

In Canada we have Islam the religion. Same as we have Christianity the religion. And Judaism the religion. Our politics are secular, again, Muslims vote in large part for the party of gay rights, LGBTQ rights, women's equality, more so than the general population who vote for a party that doesn't have those issues as far up in their list of priorities.

 

[Brad Sallows]

While this belongs in it the other thread, this does not change the fact that you would believe that most left leaners are vile.

You keep trying to shift my assertion that the left mainstream has deeply illiberal people into an assertion that "most" must be so. I'm not taking the bait, so stop trying to rake together enough straw for that scarecrow.

I can find plenty of dissent and contrary opinion on the right, which is not notorious for calling for people to be exiled and silenced and punished for opinions, policy, and politics. And the small group of left-liberal outcasts at SubStack, and how they are treated by the people who cast them out, illustrates concretely a problem the left has that the right simply doesn't come close to matching.

 

[Altair]

They don't speak with much authority. When I want to know about Catholicism, I look to the Vatican.

And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.

Islam is made up of sects, and sects within sects, much closer to the gazillion denominations of Protestantism.

One can even look at western Islam as the reformation Islam has long needed, secular politically, and devout spiritually.

Canadian and western Muslims are the ideal we want to show towards the world. People, Muslims included want to get away from the unstable nations with no separation of church and state. Here we have it. There is no them and us, there are Canadians.

Christian Canadians.

Jewish Canadians.

Muslim Canadians.

First Nation Canadians.

All who can belong to any political party, be friends with anyone else, who live in harmony unless the FIFA world cup is going on or the all Canadian Division of the stanley cup playoffs are going on.

So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem.

How much further does it take for the wrong individual to go from "I don't like Islam" to I must kill Islam?

 

[Brad Sallows]

the large majority of Muslims work within a countries framework and are not seeking to curtail rights of other muslims or native born Europeans.

Yet where they have critical masses - the banlieus of France, Gothenburg in Sweden, neighbourhoods in Britain - we are treated to stories of assaults and rape gangs, and of police who either refrain from treading or are instructed not to tread.

 

[Good2Golf]

Strictly understood, Islam is a political movement. Most religions are to some extent (in laying down rules and laws and whatnot), but the core of Islam has not really gotten to the separation of church and state yet.

Ah, like Anglicanism...

 

[Brad Sallows]

And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.

Islam has a head; he just happens to be dead. His book is where you'd look.

So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like "X" ARE the problem.

When all you can do is demonize ("wrong side of history", "you are the problem") you're exactly what you are railing against. People have cultural distinctions, and some of the things in which some groups have widespread belief (expressed or not) are illiberal. There's a whole strain of popular political thought in Canada, highly active right now, devoted to maintaining "them and us". It gives the lie to any suggestion that no such divisions can or should be tolerated.

 

[Altair]

Yet where they have critical masses - the banlieus of France, Gothenburg in Sweden, neighbourhoods in Britain - we are treated to stories of assaults and rape gangs, and of police who either refrain from treading or are instructed not to tread.

Yes, if there are neighborhoods of poor, underprivileged, poorly integrated individuals you hear these stories.

I hear the same stories, I've read the same stories.

The Jamaicans gangs in Toronto.

Haitian Gangs in Montreal.

The Irish were vilified throughout a period of American history.

So were the Italians.

A common them versus us that is resolved when a group of people are properly integrated within a society.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Ah, like Anglicanism...

Yeah, but there's a long spectrum between fundamental evangelism and the United Church. Protestantism is whatever people want it to be.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem.

Now I can say you are wrong.......and know I'm right.

 

[Altair]

Islam has a head; he just happens to be dead. His book is where you'd look.

Don't go there. The Bible is a bloody document as well.

When all you can do is demonize ("wrong side of history", "you are the problem") you're exactly what you are railing against. People have cultural distinctions, and some of the things in which some groups have widespread belief (expressed or not) are illiberal. There's a whole strain of popular political thought in Canada, highly active right now, devoted to maintaining "them and us". It gives the lie to any suggestion that no such divisions can or should be tolerated.

I'm not vilifying a entire group of people for things they haven't done.

I'm telling a specific individual that they need to do better.

I don't like Islam is a problematic statement. There are those who are taking this line of thought and running with it. They go to far but they are starting somewhere.

I don't like Islam to me is the same as I don't like black people.

Or I don't like First nations.

Or I don't like Asians.

While nothing illegal about the statement, its a problematic statement none the less. And what happens when someone who starts with I don't like (insert here) goes to the next step, and the next step after that?

Shit like what happened in London happens.

 

[Altair]

Now I can say you are wrong.......and know I'm right.

I don't like White people.

I don't like Black people.

I don't like Asians.

| don't like Jews.

Would I be able to get away with saying any of these in the Canadian Armed Forces?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Don't go there. The Bible is a bloody document as well.

Yes it is. And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I don't like Islam is a problematic statement.

Islam is problematic. I don't like the parts of it which result in the executions of people for their sexuality, or being women who did the wrong thing. I don't like the people who defend the countries in which the religion is practiced that way, using the perverted doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Perhaps you are right and western Muslims will reform it. Once they've done, I'll change my mind.

 

[Altair]

Yes it is. And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.

And Muslims in the west are largely ignoring the bloody bits as well.

Model citizens most of them.

They are exactly what we wish the rest of the Muslim world would be, politically secular, spiritually devout. Yet here we are talking about critical mass.

This after 4 peaceful muslims are attacked by some idiot who hates them simply because they were muslim.

Its gross.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I don't like Islam to me is the same as I don't like black people.

Perhaps you mean "I don't like Muslims to me is the same as I don't like black people"?

Islam is a system of beliefs, not a people.

 

[Altair]

Islam is problematic. I don't like the parts of it which result in the executions of people for their sexuality, or being women who did the wrong thing.

Where is this happening in the west? Where? Canada has a Muslim population of over 1 million people, where is this happening?

And why are Muslims in Canada voting for the party of Gay rights, abortion, LGBTQ rights, women's equality, that, ironically, people who are not Muslims tend to call virtue signaling?

I don't like the people who defend the countries in which the religion is practiced that way, using the perverted doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Perhaps you are right and western Muslims will reform it. Once they've done, I'll change my mind.

You may need to understand, that as secular politically, and devout spiritually, Muslims in the west have largely reformed it locally. Can they do it globally? No, there are political powers that will prevent this from happening in those countries, and I don't feel like sending peaceful Canadian Muslims to their deaths.

But what bone can you possible have to pick with Canadian Muslims? They work hard, they pay their taxes, they don't let their religion influence their vote, when in a position of power they don't use their religion to oppress others, they are pretty much the same as any Jewish family, any Christian family, any atheist family.

They are not Muslims in that sense, they are Canadians.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes, if there are neighborhoods of poor, underprivileged, poorly integrated individuals you hear these stories.

I hear the same stories, I've read the same stories.

The Jamaicans gangs in Toronto.

Haitian Gangs in Montreal.

The Irish were vilified throughout a period of American history.

So were the Italians.

A common them versus us that is resolved when a group of people are properly integrated within a society.

And given time most will integrate.

However when they segregate themselves and refuse to at least obey the laws of the land they have emigrated to then its a problem.