Recruits of the last half decade: Fatter, dumber and less motivated than before.

[The_Falcon]

I loved ratemyprof... having a conversation with the best prof I ever had, the only prof that tried to force students to learn a concept and *apply it* to an "unknown" problem, he brought up ratemyprof and how he is crucified on there for making students learn. Luckily, he's one of the few left that cares too much about actual education to "change," and he doesn't care what consequences there are for it. He even gave me a *wink wink nudge nudge* hint that indicated to me that a part of the professors compensation is tied to how they score on their "end-of-course reviews" which are filled out BY THE STUDENTS... talk about the tail wagging the f**king dog!!! Heartbreaking to know that the best profs (who actually care about the students and want them to learn and succeed after their degree program) are being hurt financially, while the worst ones who pander to the students and try to be their "friend" are being rewarded financially for it.

I think I must be an oddball, I get really annoyed to the point of being pissed, if a course I am taking requires no thought in order to pass...something about getting value for my money.  One of the big reasons I now stick to online education, I couldn't justify sitting in 3 hour lectures, without engaging my brain, when I could be doing something productive like making money.

 

[cjette1]

How is it becoming harder to sell the profession of arms?

I just feel that if you were to compare a civilian job with the equivalency in the military it would seem much more viable for most to opt in for the civvie job. Ex: Would one rather settle down with a trade ticket in a high paying competitive civilian industry or leave all of the comfort behind and take the equivalent position in the military? With this idea floating around most (key words) "educated, motivated young people would be drawn to the civilian market. This weeding in numbers could attribute to the lower recruiting standards. Yes there are high applicant numbers each year, but of those how many would qualify as "well educated, fit and motivated". My previous post was trying to point a finger at applicants being sold on the profession of arms due to what they saw on t.v.

After some thought, I retract my statement of trying to sell the profession of arms. To clarify, it's becoming harder to sell the profession of arms to the right targets. Well educated, motivated youth = perfect...provided they don't get lost to the civilian trades first.

This is really an interesting topic.

 

[ballz]

I think I must be an oddball, I get really annoyed to the point of being pissed, if course I am taking requires no thought in order to pass...

That's why I could never motivate myself to put anything into it... I am much more motivated to show up to a jiu jitsu class where I learn things every day and am challenged by others around me, and also much more motivated for a field ex or something due to the challenge of "here's a problem, here's your resources / constraints, solve it." As opposed to, "here's the example problem, here's how to solve it, memorize it because it will be on the test in the exact same form with different values and names."

 

[BeyondTheNow]

As was mentioned in an earlier post, this is an issue outside of the military as well. Having many friends in managerial positions, as well has having held leadership roles myself, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find employees who are simply willing to work. Period. Regardless of what the job entails.

For me, one word comes to mind. Value. The value of a hard days work. The value of a dollar.  The value of being independent. The value of making wise decisions and possessing the ability of discernment in order to distinguish between what is actually considered to be the wise choice. Why isn't value being taught anymore? Instead, it's become a matter of too many instances of self-absorption and entitlement, and parents who are willing to bail the kids out for every little thing--Kids who are *somehow* having it ingrained in their psyche that they are above being told what to do, being reprimanded in class, performing their job/school duties at the level their supervisor/teacher wishes, being told "No."

The only good news, IMO, is that these issues are slowly being recognized. Those who screwed it up in the first place are realizing that they don't want a bunch of fat, lazy, unproductive people hanging around and making everything else difficult for those who have to pick up the slack.  Hopefully, the damage can be reversed, but it'll take a while.

 

[Journeyman]

OK, this is clearly a "Recruiting" topic masquerading as a "Military Current Affairs & News" topic. 

While the subject may hurt the feelings of some recruit posters, if you disbelieve the article writer's premise, just go browse the Recruiting threads.  The reason most of the responses here are literate and coherent is simply because, not being posted in Recruiting, it doesn't attract the attention of the illiterate, knuckle-dragging XBox players...pretty much proving the author's point of view regarding the knock-on effect of the 'no one fails' scholastic system.

As for fatter, it's been noted that society is generally getting more sedentary. As for less motivated, there's plenty of commentary out there about the 'self-entitled' generation.


As one who generally ignores the Recruiting threads, I don't find the article remotely newsworthy or shocking.

 

[Kat Stevens]

OK, this is clearly a "Recruiting" topic masquerading as a "Military Current Affairs & News" topic. 

While the subject may hurt the feelings of some recruit posters, if you disbelieve the article writer's premise, just go browse the Recruiting threads.  The reason most of the responses here are literate and coherent is simply because, not being posted in Recruiting, it doesn't attract the attention of the illiterate, knuckle-dragging XBox players...pretty much proving the author's point of view regarding the knock-on effect of the 'no one fails' scholastic system.

As for fatter, it's been noted that society is generally getting more sedentary. As for less motivated, there's plenty of commentary out there about the 'self-entitled' generation.


As one who generally ignores the Recruiting threads, I don't find the article remotely newsworthy or shocking.

That's becuz yore edgycated and smrt.

 

[Journeyman]

That's becuz yore edgycated and smrt.

Nahhh....I joined with grade 10, back when that was OK.  But when my friends were out drinking and getting laid, I was doing night school and correspondence courses.    :facepalm:

 

[kevincanada]

I just feel that if you were to compare a civilian job with the equivalency in the military it would seem much more viable for most to opt in for the civvie job. Ex: Would one rather settle down with a trade ticket in a high paying competitive civilian industry or leave all of the comfort behind and take the equivalent position in the military? With this idea floating around most (key words) "educated, motivated young people would be drawn to the civilian market. This weeding in numbers could attribute to the lower recruiting standards. Yes there are high applicant numbers each year, but of those how many would qualify as "well educated, fit and motivated". My previous post was trying to point a finger at applicants being sold on the profession of arms due to what they saw on t.v.

After some thought, I retract my statement of trying to sell the profession of arms. To clarify, it's becoming harder to sell the profession of arms to the right targets. Well educated, motivated youth = perfect...provided they don't get lost to the civilian trades first.

This is really an interesting topic.

I worked in civilian trades, the luscious amounts of money you earn is fleeting at best.  Unless you work for a Union local and are registered apprentice trying to achieve a Red Seal license you won't make much.  I took a temporary 2 month job, worked on a Union Condo tower site to tie me over in Toronto.  Most of the workers non union, low pay, no benefits/pension and they are all self-employed. The companies don't even hire employees anymore.  100% sub-contractors working at general labourer rates.  The only guys who get the money are the union boys.  They are often a minority on job sites, not majority.  Unless you are union and licensed,  Skilled Trades making big $$$ in civie market is a pipe dream.

 

[ModlrMike]

This morning I made the observation to my wife that people have become fatter, lazier and stupider than ever. I guess I'm proved right!

 

[kevincanada]

This morning I made the observation to my wife that people have become fatter, lazier and stupider than ever. I guess I'm proved right!

huh?  ;D

 

[JorgSlice]

I worked in civilian trades, the luscious amounts of money you earn is fleeting at best.  Unless you work for a Union local and are registered apprentice trying to achieve a Red Seal license you won't make much.  I took a temporary 2 month job, worked on a Union Condo tower site to tie me over in Toronto.  Most of the workers non union, low pay, no benefits/pension and they are all self-employed. The companies don't even hire employees anymore.  100% sub-contractors working at general labourer rates.  The only guys who get the money are the union boys.  They are often a minority on job sites, not majority.  Unless you are union and licensed,  Skilled Trades making big $$$ in civie market is a pipe dream.

No idea where you've been working. When I was 16 doing my Millwright apprenticeship through a high school co-op programme, I was earning the % of a journeyman's wage, non-union, and still making $22/hr. Over the next 3 years I jumped from 22-36 and once I was red seal certified I could have gone and made bigger dollars with rail, hydro, petroleum. I saved up enough money through a high school apprentice ship that even with my university scholarships, I was being paid to complete a Criminal Justice degree. Tradesmen do make boatloads of money even of you're in a province with a less-than-ideal economy and job market (BC, MB, ON, QC).

Super off topic though.

I agree with the premise of this thread. There needs to be more done to reverse this trend of "fatter, dumber" etc. I did not aspire to be in a CF that is publicly known as fat and dumb.

 

[kevincanada]

Yes if you are a apprentice and getting a ticket you are good to go in the trades or work for a union you are good.  There are many sites that avoid union workers.  If that's the case you get nothing.  As in the Condo market with the big towers going up.  The electrical, mechanical and plumbing aspects all ticketed workers making good money.  Everybody else? Kitchen installers, Tilers, drywallers, painters, customer care nope.  The essential Licensed stuff goes to the unions on the big sites, everything else gets sub-contracted out to the lowest bidder.

I'm going a little off topic.  I was only trying to point out.  If you want the money get a ticket, work for a union and you will be paid.  My local speedy mechanic I asked him last time I was in and he told me he doesn't have a license.  Yet I still paid full rate.  Hmm where did the money goooo?

 

[Robert0288]

And swinging back on target.

Could the fall of good applicants be more the cause of a lack of an extremely high profile mission, such as Afghanistan?  The dudes that are hard charging educated and driven, may be looking more towards industry and civy employment specifically because they don't have a visible destination to set their eyes on.  Which would explain why the entry standards into the CF, especially into the combat arms trades, appeared to go up in the last decade.

I'm also a huge believer in conducting the fitness test as part of the recruiting process prior to enrollment.  Doing that provides minimal extra effort on behalf of the CF recruitment process. Eliminates the need to force people into shape via warrior/fitness Pl etc... and provides incentive for people who want to join to get in shape before joining.

At the recruiting center give out panflets on proper diet, and basic physical fitness. 

Even if they don't eventually join, you helped add to the national fitness of the country reducing obesity and other related health issues /grand strategy

 

[The_Falcon]

The CAF does have a lack of "good"  applicants.  One of the issues (which I alluded to earlier), is the "no one left behind" mindset has worked it's way into CFRG.  It was EXTREMELY difficult (and frustrating), to convince my supervisors to junk bad applicants (and for sake of clarity I am talking about new applicants, not people looking to rejoin with unfavourable release categories that's a whole different issue).  Applications that a McDonald's manager would pass on were/are being pushed through the system, which leads to many of these applications eventually getting merit listed (short of completely failing an interview, or having a really serious credit/criminal background return, or medical issues, almost everyone gets merit listed).  And well eventually some of these shining stars get hired.

The CAF can't fix society, but it sure as heck can improve how it recruits people, and it's not that hard really.  For starters, just enforcing the policies that are in place, and not accepting ANY incomplete/improper paperwork, would dramatically cut down crappy applicants, and allow the system to more quickly and effectively process the applicants who aren't morons and can properly follow directions.

 

[Bert]

I think this is one of the stupidest National Post articles I've ever read.  Depending on point of view, if the "fatter, dumber, less motivated recruit" before BMQ is still that way after their QL5A when they start being useful (and not
a recruit anymore), then the problem is systemic and not the recruit in my opinion.  There are a number of generational masses moving through the system, Babyboomers, Gen X, Y, and Z, impacted with societal attitudes, however
the Supervisor expects the new guy in the section to continually learn, be reliable, and contribute irrespective of the member's initial starting point.

Caesar complained about his recruits being useless.  It's what you do with the clay that matters.  No story here.

+1

 

[armyvern]

I think this is one of the stupidest National Post articles I've ever read.  Depending on point of view, if the "fatter, dumber, less motivated recruit" before BMQ is still that way after their QL5A when they start being useful (and not
a recruit anymore), then the problem is systemic and not the recruit in my opinion.  There are a number of generational masses moving through the system, Babyboomers, Gen X, Y, and Z, impacted with societal attitudes, however
the Supervisor expects the new guy in the section to continually learn, be reliable, and contribute irrespective of the member's initial starting point.

Wow!!  You mean the CF resembles a cross-section of Canadian society!!??  Who knew.  Like has been said numerous times in the thread already ... no story here.

:nod:

 

[Uther419]

In my opinion,the CF should go back to how basic was with WW2, with the aim of getting all person's in shape as the primary focus, with soldier training mixed in. This may help flush out the unmotivated recruits, or undesirables who can't go with the flow, even if they are He-man. Another point, just because back in the day people were thinner doesn't mean that they were more fit. Obesity maybe up but what system are we using? BMI? Its been shown time and time again how flawed that that system can be. I personally am 240 Lb's 6'2 and have a bit extra around the middle. I've always had poor upper body strength but I do have the motivation to change that, hence why I'm always sore from working out. Also with the focus on university our society has, and the idea your life is over if you don't have it, it makes sense why were getting the "uneducated" and "dumb", because they see the CF as their way out and into a job that makes a decent living. Just my  :2c:

*Edited for grammar and spelling*

 

[caocao]

Like someone said before in this or other thread there should be a pt test as part on the recruiting process.  You can't pass, well sorry but you are going to have to try again some other time.  Enough of that spending months on the fat platoon collecting pay and pensionable time.

 

[armyvern]

Like someone said before in this or other thread there should be a pt test as part on the recruiting process.  You can't pass, well sorry but you are going to have to try again some other time.  Enough of that spending months on the fat platoon collecting pay and pensionable time.

I don't think you'll find too many who disagree on this front;  that 'lil old Hillier 5K Growth Surge resulted in that change to "no fitness test to enroll" (more realistically named "grow me by 5K by any means possible NOW") which, I believe, was the beginning of the slide and has most probably cost us millions in supporting deadwood.

 

[dapaterson]

I don't think you'll find too many who disagree on this front;  that 'lil old Hillier 5K Growth Surge resulted in that change to "no fitness test to enroll" (more realistically named "grow me by 5K by any means possible NOW") which, I believe, was the beginning of the slide and has most probably cost us millions in supporting deadwood.

It also meant that folks were brought in who only met the minimum.  For some tech trades, it's worth holding out for those with higher scores than the bare minimum for the trade - schools are finding more folks being recoursed academically, slowing down personnel production.