Recruited for Navy SEALs, Many Sailors Wind Up Scraping Paint

[KevinB]

We had candidates in recruit training die as well. Undiagnosed medical conditions

Trust me, there are some significant underlying issues with BUD/S.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Trust me, there are some significant underlying issues with BUD/S.

There is a certain occupational transfer only trade in the CAF that had to have some outside intervention injected as their assessment training had gone awry.

 

[OldSolduer]

Trust me, there are some significant underlying issues with BUD/S.

I’ll take your word on that.

 

[KevinB]

Death in Navy SEAL Training Exposes a Culture of Brutality, Cheating and Drugs (Published 2022)

The elite force’s selection course is so punishing that few make it through, and many of those who do resort to illicit tactics.

www.nytimes.com

And in 2017…

Navy SEAL drug use "staggering," investigation finds

Three Navy SEALs agreed to speak to CBS News about the "growing" problem with drug use among their ranks

www.cbsnews.com

There sadly are more.
I do have some good friends who are SEAL’s, they view the steroid usage as cheating, but also believe the training system has some serious issues to even get to the point that a segment of candidates are feeling they needs to resort to that sort of stuff.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Death in Navy SEAL Training Exposes a Culture of Brutality, Cheating and Drugs (Published 2022)

The elite force’s selection course is so punishing that few make it through, and many of those who do resort to illicit tactics.

www.nytimes.com

And in 2017…

Navy SEAL drug use "staggering," investigation finds

Three Navy SEALs agreed to speak to CBS News about the "growing" problem with drug use among their ranks

www.cbsnews.com

There sadly are more.
I do have some good friends who are SEAL’s, they view the steroid usage as cheating, but also believe the training system has some serious issues to even get to the point that a segment of candidates are feeling they needs to resort to that sort of stuff.

Nothing that a few 50/ 100 milers couldn't fix, I'm guessing

 

[Kilted]

The pass rate for BUDS might be 33% or maybe lower. Its been said this is an SOF organization, not a Boy Scout camp. Come to think of it some people in the military might not make in the Boy Scouts either....

I'm sure the author of this article would probably be surprised at the average pass rate for the average BMQ, not sure what it is, but the last one I was staff on was about 70%.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

never tried out, sounds like fun but I was never up to the task.



Not every kid playing sports is the next #99, or the next #23.

Not everyone can be the elite special forces operator. It takes some skills and some mental toughness to make it.

I would expect a high failure rate and have a ton of respect those who make it. Everyone needs a hero to measure up to.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If someone tries out for SF and gets past the halfway point and then fails, they still have my respect for trying.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

If someone tries out for SF and gets past the halfway point and then fails, they still have my respect for trying.

You can get through a selection, go on a years worth of training and still fail. Selection is only the beginning for any sort of specialist unit.

It happened to me and many others. I didn't even find the selection I did that hard (it isn't if you're already good at skills they are assessing and possess the attributes they are looking for). The training afterwards was far more challenging. You are always being assessed and need to be ON 24/7.

I washed out near the end of the course and could have attempted again. It happens to a lot of people, some decide they want another crack and are successful and some decide to cut their losses and move on. One guy I did my course with was on attempt #2 and he was successful that time.

In my case, the training and year and a half process to get to that point destroyed my personal relationships at the time and I found myself newly single and living like a bum with only a futon and a crappy pickup truck, so I decided to take a pause and reassess my life.

Looking at it objectively now, I could have polished up on one or two things, gone back and probably knocked it out of the park but I wasn't in the right head space at the time to even contemplate it.

Them's the breaks, you miss every shot you don't take. Most people won't even attempt it because of a fragile ego.

 

[KevinB]

You can get through a selection, go on a years worth of training and still fail. Selection is only the beginning for any sort of specialist unit.

It happened to me and many others. I didn't even find the selection I did that hard (it isn't if you're already good at skills they are assessing and possess the attributes they are looking for). The training afterwards was far more challenging. You are always being assessed and need to be ON 24/7.

I washed out near the end of the course and could have attempted again. It happens to a lot of people, some decide they want another crack and are successful and some decide to cut their losses and move on. One guy I did my course with was on attempt #2 and he was successful that time.

In my case, the training and year and a half process to get to that point destroyed my personal relationships at the time and I found myself newly single and living like a bum with only a futon and a crappy pickup truck, so I decided to take a pause and reassess my life.

Looking at it objectively now, I could have polished up on one or two things, gone back and probably knocked it out of the park but I wasn't in the right head space at the time to even contemplate it.

Them's the breaks, you miss every shot you don't take. Most people won't even attempt it because of a fragile ego.

One of my buddies did CAG Selection 4x before getting into the unit.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

One of my buddies did CAG Selection 4x before getting into the unit.

Yup, the only people that know what it's REALLY like are those that have gone through the process for any one of these units.

Sometimes you will also just fail due to shit luck. Way she goes!

There will usually be a Small Army of your former comrades celebrating your demise as well when you come back. They are usually just jealous because they didn't have the balls to attempt it themselves

My Regiment was very happy to stick the knife in my back when I returned because I turned down AOC to go do what I did. I "wasn't a team player and couldn't be trusted". I still have my AOC Welcome Letter in a box somewhere from the then, Colonel Dawe .

I did learn useful skills though, some of them I still employ to this day. It's probably a blessing I didn't end up there permanently to be honest. A number of the fellows I worked with and have kept in contact with have severe PTSD and mental health issues.

 

[QV]

There will usually be a Small Army of your former comrades celebrating your demise as well when you come back. They are usually just jealous because they didn't have the balls to attempt it themselves

My Regiment was very happy to stick the knife in my back when I returned because I turned down AOC to go do what I did. I "wasn't a team player and couldn't be trusted". I still have my AOC Welcome Letter in a box somewhere from the then, Colonel Dawe .

Both of these points are exactly right.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I did learn useful skills though, some of them I still employ to this day. It's probably a blessing I didn't end up there permanently to be honest. A number of the fellows I worked with and have kept in contact with have severe PTSD and mental health issues.

And the dead pile up pretty fast too

 

[OldSolduer]

I did learn useful skills though, some of them I still employ to this day. It's probably a blessing I didn't end up there permanently to be honest. A number of the fellows I worked with and have kept in contact with have severe PTSD and mental health issues.

We - the CAF -do a relatively decent job of physically prepping troops for combat.

Where the CAF fails is the mental preparations. When I say mental preps I mean seeing body parts blown off, dead folks, severely wounded people etc. The mind is part of the body and it will fail if it is not prepared.

 

[Halifax Tar]

We - the CAF -do a relatively decent job of physically prepping troops for combat.

Where the CAF fails is the mental preparations. When I say mental preps I mean seeing body parts blown off, dead folks, severely wounded people etc. The mind is part of the body and it will fail if it is not prepared.

I'm not sure we can blame the CAF for that. We have preached against and insulated our young from violence for a couple generations. One of the biggest lies we tell is that violence doesn't solve problems. We have a weak society. I think we're in the period of "weak men make hard times".

 

[dimsum]

I'm not sure we can blame the CAF for that. We have preached against and insulated our young from violence for a couple generations. One of the biggest lies we tell is that violence doesn't solve problems. We have a weak society. I think we're in the period of "weak men make hard times".

I'm not sure that really helps with seeing body parts blown off, dead folks, etc. as @OldSolduer states.

I don't have any stats on hand, but I'm sure if we used today's PTSD criteria and applied to WWII vets, the cases of "Uncle so-and-so was changed by the war" or "Grandpa doesn't talk about it much" would be in a different light.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not sure that really helps with seeing body parts blown off, dead folks, etc. as @OldSolduer states.

I don't have any stats on hand, but I'm sure if we used today's PTSD criteria and applied to WWII vets, the cases of "Uncle so-and-so was changed by the war" or "Grandpa doesn't talk about it much" would be in a different light.

We are always going to have people who endure PTSD. Our job has the distinct possibility of adverse experiences, we have to make peace with that. I directly attribute my ability to deal with death and dismemberment to my rural upbringing. As recent as FRE '20 I was intimately involved with the collection of very ghastly remains. And that stretches as far back as TOR '07 when we recovered a bunch of Yemeni soldiers from the red sea. I've been up to my elbows in blood and guts since I was a wee lad helping the men gut and skin all manner of fish and game, not to mention the normal experiences of a rural life. I was never hid sadness and loss and I was always told that violence is not the answer until its the only option.

The ability for one to endure pain and horror and come out the other side in the best possible shape is really established in the upbringing of the person. The CAF can help, but if there is no foundation I have to wonder how much it can actually accomplish.

I'm no psychologist. Just talking about my own experiences.

 

[Remius]

I'm not sure that really helps with seeing body parts blown off, dead folks, etc. as @OldSolduer states.

I don't have any stats on hand, but I'm sure if we used today's PTSD criteria and applied to WWII vets, the cases of "Uncle so-and-so was changed by the war" or "Grandpa doesn't talk about it much" would be in a different light.

Only stat I have is that my grandfather tried to take his own life three times after the war. I’m sure plenty of cases of suicide were covered up or attributed to something else back in those days and people didn’t talk about it.

The ability for one to endure that come out the other side in the best possible shape is really established in the upbringing of the person. The CAF can help, but if there is no foundation I have to wonder how much it can actually accomplish.

Maybe. I suspect upbringing can help in some cases but I’m not sure any amount of upbringing can prepare even the most resilient to certain things, especially when they are sustained over and over. The human psyche can only take so much. Post WW1 and WW2 I suspect plenty of domestic abuse, suicide and other things can be attributed to the mind trying to cope but how many of those cases were family « dirty secrets » and never brought to light?

CAF should try to have that foundation and be prepared to deal with the after effects. Not sure though that it is doing either effectively.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Maybe. I suspect upbringing can help in some cases but I’m not sure any amount of upbringing can prepare even the most resilient to certain things, especially when they are sustained over and over. The human psyche can only take so much. Post WW1 and WW2 I suspect plenty of domestic abuse, suicide and other things can be attributed to the mind trying to cope but how many of those cases were family « dirty secrets » and never brought to light?

CAF should try to have that foundation and be prepared to deal with the after effects. Not sure though that it is doing either effectively.

I think when we peer into the past we have to remember the environment and the culture at that time. For example commonly accepted means of disciplining a child as recent as the '80s is now considered child abuse. I remember playing ball tag and I took a hard hit and yelled "Jesus Christ", my dad walked through a hedge, punched me in the face and I spent the rest of the afternoon cooking in a Ford Tempo in August in Ont heat. I couldn't imagine doing the same to my daughter. But I don't think my father was wrong either. Its just the way was business was conducted. There his a happy medium.

I'm not debating that WW1 and 2 left a wake of broken men. But I also find it interesting how many came home, coped with their experiences and built productive and loving lives. I don't see that ability in us now. And the only thing I can point to is the differences in how we rear our young. But as I said, I am no psychologist. Just and uneducated observer using his own experiences.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think when we peer into the past we have to remember the environment and the culture at that time. For example commonly accepted means of disciplining a child as recent as the '80s is now considered child abuse. I remember playing ball tag and I took a hard hit and yelled "Jesus Christ", my dad walked through a hedge, punched me in the face and I spent the rest of the afternoon cooking in a Ford Tempo in August in Ont heat. I couldn't imagine doing the same to my daughter. But I don't think my father was wrong either. Its just the was business was conducted. There his a happy medium.

I'm not debating that WW1 and 2 left a wake of broken men. But I also find it interesting how many came home, coped with their experiences and built productive and loving lives. I don't see that ability in us now. And the only thing I can point to is the differences in how we rear our young. But as I said, I am no psychologist. Just and uneducated observer using his own experiences.

It's amazing when you think about it. It helped that all the men had been through it and knew of War. My great grandfather fought in WW1 as a grunt and his sons all fought in the WW2 as grunts.

The effects of war and conflict were known to them. My great grand father had visible scarring from a mustard gas attack and he lived a shortened life as a result. He probably drank a little too much but otherwise was just a normal guy who did his best to raise his family and manage his rural farm. He died very shortly after my Father was born.

The women were also tough. My great grandmother was the one who taught my Father how to fire a rifle and shotgun for the first time. My father's stories of his grandmother are that she was a loving but very tough woman. There was no time for feeling sorry for yourself or self-loathing.

Her husband survived WW1 and they raised 6 children during the Great Depression and then she had to see some of her sons leave for years and go fight yet another War, not knowing if they would return.

It was a different time and yes, the people were tougher than we are today, no question.