RCMP New Firearms Required Discussion- Split From New MP Decal Thread

[KevinB]

They would, I think I mentioned, have to come up with an approved list that is/should be based on most common ones in use in NA (or at least Canada) - like Glock whatever frame(s), M&P (whatever frames), Springfield, CZ, TP, or whatever, decide on caliber (9mm only, 9mm or .40 or .357 Desert Eagle for all I care) and say "Hey - this is the approved list, here are the different sizes. Try and pick one each for uniform duty and plain clothes/special duty stuff and those are your sidearms now. Here's you money for initial outlay for the gun, a reflex sight, light source +/- laser." An organization as diverse as the RCMP will have a diverse set of hand sizes and body types...

Look at it like this - the NYPD, back in the 80's while they were still using .38 Specials, had a selection of brands and frames for the officers to try out in S&W and Ruger IIRC - different grip and barrel sizes and such and each baby copper got to get a feel for which would likely suit them best, then were issued one based off that selection. They could go with a one size fits all thing, but, unless the gun comes with a pile of different grips to suit the end users, a one size fits all thing will be a failure. At least Glock has a number of different frames that suit open and concealed carry and hand sizes, as does S&W, Sig, Springfield, CZ, I think even Canik TP's have compact frames too.

The Devil will lie in acquisition of course - and since common sense gets tossed out the window when it comes to anything institutional in this country regarding contracts, most people here actually working will be long retired and maybe even in PCH's before they come out with the new platform(s). Take the guess work out - talk to services in the US and Canada that have frequent use of force encounters, see what they use, find out what, if any weapon failures there were + user failures (people having issues with safeties, reloads, magazine retention, etc) and pick a few. Not really rocket science, but it, because we're Canadian, for some reason becomes a PhD thesis in mental and institutional retardation to get things to people that need them.

The issue is testing.

On the low end most entities that actually test pistols will shoot 10k rounds through each of at least 6 samples of each model submitted.
The high end entries will run 50k + life cycle for 3 samples of the final 3 short listed systems, that is after they have short listed the initial samples that went 20k rounds for Environmental Testing and Function/Reliability/Accuracy for 6 models, and 10k or so rounds through several of each model (that survived the ET&FRA), for Operational Test and Eval.

- ideally one also tests with and without WML and MRDS, as both of those can affect function.

Pistols are also the easiest weapons to test -- the ammo is cheap, and the range requirements aren't significant.

One entity I am familiar with had 14 submissions for their pistol replacement (a full size, and a compact) - they required the OEM to certify that their system had been tested to 30,000 rounds of X ammo, and any failures in testing could be grounds for disbarment of their company from future weapons solicitations.
I saw the box of parts from one vendor, and it was clear they had assumed that the entity wasn't actually going to conduct 30k tests, as their pistols where nowhere close to meeting the requirement before they suffered catastrophic failures. That entity ended up with Glock as their issue pistol as it was the only submitted pistol that met the requirements. Some others go thrown out before shooting started, as apparently they couldn't read the basic requirements for trigger pull etc.


Now for most LE Departments, they don't have a dedicated T&E/CDD cell that can do the testing, and their Firearms Training Units are already busy conducting training for recruits or in service qualifications, nor do they have a budget for 1 million rounds to dedicate to a new pistol test.
FBI is pretty good giving out its data to accredited LE Entities to make their decision easier (they also have Glock BTW), IIRC they had a 20k round service life requirement.

 

[Haggis]

Training to any credible and articulable standard, which is the responsibility of the employer, would be impossible.

Most user manuals are on-line now. Study the manual of arms from the comfort of your office. Do your qualification using one of the virtual simulators and upload your results to your training co-ordinator. Imagine the savings! Performance bonuses all around!!!

 

[medicineman]

The issue is testing.

On the low end most entities that actually test pistols will shoot 10k rounds through each of at least 6 samples of each model submitted.
The high end entries will run 50k + life cycle for 3 samples of the final 3 short listed systems, that is after they have short listed the initial samples that went 20k rounds for Environmental Testing and Function/Reliability/Accuracy for 6 models, and 10k or so rounds through several of each model (that survived the ET&FRA), for Operational Test and Eval.

- ideally one also tests with and without WML and MRDS, as both of those can affect function.

Pistols are also the easiest weapons to test -- the ammo is cheap, and the range requirements aren't significant.

One entity I am familiar with had 14 submissions for their pistol replacement (a full size, and a compact) - they required the OEM to certify that their system had been tested to 30,000 rounds of X ammo, and any failures in testing could be grounds for disbarment of their company from future weapons solicitations.
I saw the box of parts from one vendor, and it was clear they had assumed that the entity wasn't actually going to conduct 30k tests, as their pistols where nowhere close to meeting the requirement before they suffered catastrophic failures. That entity ended up with Glock as their issue pistol as it was the only submitted pistol that met the requirements. Some others go thrown out before shooting started, as apparently they couldn't read the basic requirements for trigger pull etc.


Now for most LE Departments, they don't have a dedicated T&E/CDD cell that can do the testing, and their Firearms Training Units are already busy conducting training for recruits or in service qualifications, nor do they have a budget for 1 million rounds to dedicate to a new pistol test.
FBI is pretty good giving out its data to accredited LE Entities to make their decision easier (they also have Glock BTW), IIRC they had a 20k round service life requirement.

That makes sense...and since all that has likely been done all around to a large number of agencies, why not just politely ask for and examine their data? Keeps things from being dragged out...and getting shitty products.

Most user manuals are on-line now. Study the manual of arms from the comfort of your office. Do your qualification using one of the virtual simulators and upload your results to your training co-ordinator. Imagine the savings! Performance bonuses all around!!!

Stop making sense - you'll be out of a job...

 

[lenaitch]

I don't know the rules governing the RCMP but the main issue that would stymie any effort to have the members buy their own in Ontario, beyond the training issue, is ownership. The firearm has to be issued to the member by the Chief/ Commissioner. In addition, any pistol has to meet the technical standards set out in the Police Services Act. I suppose a list of compliant weapons could be produced but it would require someone to maintain the list and test every weapon that comes on the market for compliance.

 

[Haggis]

I don't know the rules governing the RCMP but the main issue that would stymie any effort to have the members buy their own in Ontario, beyond the training issue, is ownership. The firearm has to be issued to the member by the Chief/ Commissioner. In addition, any pistol has to meet the technical standards set out in the Police Services Act. I suppose a list of compliant weapons could be produced but it would require someone to maintain the list and test every weapon that comes on the market for compliance.

That works out until you have a gunfight with three officers on scene, all with a different model pistol and no compatible magazines between them.

Then, some dinosaur rolls on scene with his revolver...

 

[KevinB]

That works out until you have a gunfight with three officers on scene, all with a different model pistol and no compatible magazines between them.

Then, some dinosaur rolls on scene with his revolver...

Honestly it already happens when you get multi jurisdictional events, or in departments that have different frame sizes - a G17 can't take G19 mags, or the single stack Glocks that work with nothing else.

Personally in a LE situation if someone is out of pistol ammo, they probably aren't worth me giving them a mag of mine...

Now Patrol Carbines, there is where I would say an X list of approved AR's in (insert entities duty ammo) would work, due to common manual of arms, common caliber and magazine -- plus if you are in a rifle fight, you may need more mags...

 

[Haggis]

Honestly it already happens when you get multi jurisdictional events, or in departments that have different frame sizes - a G17 can't take G19 mags, or the single stack Glocks that work with nothing else.

For a Mountie working in Moose Testicle Junction SK (where the two legs of Moose River meet), the next cops that arrive in scene are most likely going to be other Mounties.

Personally in a LE situation if someone is out of pistol ammo, they probably aren't worth me giving them a mag of mine...

Most cops don't shoot enough to develop any real marksmanship (markspersonship here in Canada) skills.

Now Patrol Carbines, there is where I would say an X list of approved AR's in (insert entities duty ammo) would work, due to common manual of arms, common caliber and magazine -- plus if you are in a rifle fight, you may need more mags...

The AR is definitely the Mister Potatohead of patrol carbines.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't know about other services, but each OPP members carries 51 rounds (not counting carbine). I can't say I've heard of an incident where a member ran out of ammo. A long way from six in the revolver and six in your pocket.

 

[brihard]

I don't know about other services, but each OPP members carries 51 rounds (not counting carbine). I can't say I've heard of an incident where a member ran out of ammo. A long way from six in the revolver and six in your pocket.

Multiple magazines is less about dumping rounds and more about being able to remedy a stoppage that involves ditching a mag. Though I have a good friend who owes his life to a mag dump.

 

[Booter]

there are a few pistol vs long gun shoots in the prairies in the last few years where the members were on their third mag and cut off from their long guns. Even more where they encountered a stoppage and had to discard the mag rather than problem solve it in the dark.

Not “a lot” but a non zero number and significant enough to be considered. It’s the nature of “long rural” policing.

 

[lenaitch]

Multiple magazines is less about dumping rounds and more about being able to remedy a stoppage that involves ditching a mag. Though I have a good friend who owes his life to a mag dump.

Good point. I had not considered that angle.

 

[Haggis]

Multiple magazines is less about dumping rounds and more about being able to remedy a stoppage that involves ditching a mag.

Due to this, we started teaching our officers to recover their last pistol mag or, if "in the moment enough" to retain it while clearing a stoppage. With practice, they get pretty good at it. But, like any drill, skill fade is always a problem particularly if you're lucky enough to not experience a lot of stoppages.

 

[KevinB]

Due to this, we started teaching our officers to recover their last pistol mag or, if "in the moment enough" to retain it while clearing a stoppage. With practice, they get pretty good at it. But, like any drill, skill fade is always a problem particularly if you're lucky enough to not experience a lot of stoppages.

I load dummy rounds into random training mags when running drills - as it keeps folks on their toes.

I credit DoS with shaving time off my stoppage drills - as in Afghanistan they bought almost 1m 9mm from Pakistan. It was supposed to be Winchester but was local reload that we started to call Pakchester , at a ~30% dud rate, and some issues with neck tension one could guarantee stoppages of all sorts.
It fortunately was training only ball ammo, as the duty was contract Speer 147gr JHP.

 

[Haggis]

I load dummy rounds into random training mags when running drills - as it keeps folks on their toes.

We use dummy rounds as part of our qualification shoots. We also use a mix of 9mm and .40 cal/10mm dummys to induce different kids of stoppages during practices. A .40 cal or 10mm inserted into the magazine backwards (to prevent the extractor from grabbing it) guarantees an obstructed feed path.

I credit DoS with shaving time off my stoppage drills - as in Afghanistan they bought almost 1m 9mm from Pakistan. It was supposed to be Winchester but was local reload that we started to call Pakchester , at a ~30% dud rate, and some issues with neck tension one could guarantee stoppages of all sorts.
It fortunately was training only ball ammo, as the duty was contract Speer 147gr JHP.

For a while we were using a certain brand of training ammo which burned as clean as Mexican gasoline. Got lots of stoppage reps in until that ran out.

 

[KevinB]

We use dummy rounds as part of our qualification shoots. We also use a mix of 9mm and .40 cal/10mm dummys to induce different kids of stoppages during practices. A .40 cal or 10mm inserted into the magazine backwards (to prevent the extractor from grabbing it) guarantees an obstructed feed path.

For a while we were using a certain brand of training ammo which burned as clean as Mexican gasoline. Got lots of stoppage reps in until that ran out.

.357 Sig in 9mm will always cause issues, sometimes it won’t even chamber as the mag doesn’t let it strip // that causes all sort of confusion, and often instead of discarding the mag and going to a fresh one, folks will just try to reload the mag with the same result.

I’m a big fan of video recording training sessions and conducting a hot wash after.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Look at it like this - the NYPD, back in the 80's while they were still using .38 Specials, had a selection of brands and frames for the officers to try out in S&W and Ruger IIRC - different grip and barrel sizes and such and each baby copper got to get a feel for which would likely suit them best, then were issued one based off that selection. They could go with a one size fits all thing, but, unless the gun comes with a pile of different grips to suit the end users, a one size fits all thing will be a failure. At least Glock has a number of different frames that suit open and concealed carry and hand sizes, as does S&W, Sig, Springfield, CZ, I think even Canik TP's have compact frames too.

Top is the CANIK TP9 Elite Sub Compact
Bottom is the CANIK TP9 SA (full sized)