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Quebec Liberals call province 'nation'

Bigmac

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October 21, 2006

Quebec Liberals call province 'nation'

By ALEXANDER PANETTA

Federal Liberal leadership candidate Bob Rae makes a point as fellow candidate Stepahen Dion listens, Saturday in Montreal. (CP/Paul Chiasson)
MONTREAL (CP) - The federal Liberals' Quebec wing endorsed a resolution Saturday that the province is "a nation within Canada" - a concept the party has vigorously opposed for years.

The results could be highly divisive for Liberals. The emotionally charged issue now must be debated and voted upon in December on the floor of their national leadership convention in Montreal.

Several leadership candidates warn that the resolution concept could stir national-unity troubles, while its proponents see it as a way to rebuild the party in Quebec.

Leadership front-runner Michael Ignatieff was among those to welcome the move, which got the endorsement of a crushing majority of delegates Saturday to a gathering of the provincial wing.

Chief rivals Bob Rae and Stephane Dion opposed the motion, even though they said they have no problem considering Quebec a nation, sociologically speaking.

But they suggested that by endorsing the concept, and floating the idea of constitutional reform to enshrine it in law, Ignatieff is playing with fire.

But Ignatieff brushed off the possibility that attempts at constitutional reform will inevitably lead to the same crisis that followed such efforts in the 1980s and early '90s.

"We can't let the failures of the past determine our constituional future together," Ignatieff said.

"Canada has changed since Meech (Lake). Quebec has changed since Meech."

The failure of the Meech Lake accord, and efforts to recognize Quebec as a "distinct society," created East-West tensions, split the Conservative party in half for more than a decade, and led to the near-victory of sovereigntist forces in the 1995 Quebec referendum.

Ignatieff said he would proceed with caution. He said he will wait to see whether the national party adopts the Quebec resolution idea in December, then consider how to move forward.

"It's the first step in a long road, and we have to proceed prudently and wisely."

The idea of considering Quebec a sociological nation within Canada, such as Scotland within Britain or the region of Catalonia within Spain, has become a consensus issue among the province's political class.

Some Liberals suggested Saturday that they stand to gain politically by recognizing what most Quebecers themselves see as a reality.

The sponsorship scandal nearly wiped the Liberals off the Quebec political map in the last election but recent polls suggest they have now passed the Tories in popular support there.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has steadfastly refused to endorse the concept of Quebec as a nation.

Rae said he opposed the resolution not because of his view on whether Quebec could be considered as such, but suggested his rival was opening a Pandora's box.

"I have no particular problem with the formulation of the words, 'Quebec is a nation,' " Rae said.

"Where I part company with some is whether we should be reopening the Constitution at this point in time. I think we all know it's an incredible expenditure of time from the political leadership of the country.

"It's not at all because I don't recognize the collectivity of Quebec, in a sociological sense a nation. There are lots of nations in the country."

Dion offered a similar analysis. The former university professor said he was teaching the concept of a Quebec nation more than a decade ago.

"We could certainly find a definition of the word 'nation' that respects the reality of Quebec. The error isn't there," he said.

"The mistake is to make these semantic debates the centrepiece of a national-unity strategy."

      OK, here is my spin on this. The Quebec Liberals are divided over Quebec being considered a nation. The Liberal leadership race is going strong and Michael Ignatieff is looking for something to push him over the top. As Stephen Harper is steadfastly against the Quebec "nation" concept Michael Ignatieff can use his current stance to attack any Quebec Liberal who opposes as a Conservative supporter. By doing this he will gain the extra votes he needs to win the Liberal leadership and at the same time shows Quebec voters some love for the inevitable federal election that will likely occur in the spring. I think this is a dangerous path for the Liberals to take and will bite them come a federal election.
      Anybody have another theory??
 
I think part of the whole "nation" problem is in that although they are spelled the same, "nation" in french, as I understand it, implies an ethnicity, whereas in english it is a synonym for country.  Can we have it both ways?  I don't know...
 
Bigmac said:
       OK, here is my spin on this. The Quebec Liberals are divided over Quebec being considered a nation. The Liberal leadership race is going strong and Michael Ignatieff is looking for something to push him over the top. As Stephen Harper is steadfastly against the Quebec "nation" concept Michael Ignatieff can use his current stance to attack any Quebec Liberal who opposes as a Conservative supporter. By doing this he will gain the extra votes he needs to win the Liberal leadership and at the same time shows Quebec voters some love for the inevitable federal election that will likely occur in the spring. I think this is a dangerous path for the Liberals to take and will bite them come a federal election.
      Anybody have another theory??

I think Ignatiff is going to have this bite him in the arse. Suck up to Quebec at the peril of losing support in Ontario, especially when you start talking "nation" status. The referendum is still well remembered in the rest of Canada.
 
I think you are being to strict with your definition of nation.  Nation means many things and a 'nation within a nation' stance is simply taking a different look at what is currently occurring in Canada in different forms.
 
UberCree said:
I think you are being to strict with your definition of nation.  Nation means many things and a 'nation within a nation' stance is simply taking a different look at what is currently occurring in Canada in different forms.

It can mean whatever it wants to those who chose to use it in their small group, but to the general Canadian voter, it only means one thing.
 
youravatar said:
Whatever will keep Bob Rae out of office is fine by me. ^-^

Bob Rae is the best thing that could happen to the Conservatives
 
GAP said:
Bob Rae is the best thing that could happen to the Conservatives
No offence. How long do you think Steven Harper is going to be able to stand up there. He's starting to woble.
 
I think you are underestimating the Conservatives, especially in Quebec. They only won 10 seats, but in 20+ others there were a close second with the Bloc...

There is lots of noise being made right now, but it's not election time. You don't blow all you capital just to improve your stance in the eyes of the media, you use it to gain votes WHEN they can be gained and used.
 
GAP said:
I think you are underestimating the Conservatives, especially in Quebec. They only won 10 seats, but in 20+ others there were a close second with the Bloc...

There is lots of noise being made right now, but it's not election time. You don't blow all you capital just to improve your stance in the eyes of the media, you use it to gain votes WHEN they can be gained and used.

Still he's lost alot of ground in Quebec on some issues. And with this new Liberal policy it would be easier for them to take votes away from the bloc.
 
Like I said earlier, if Ignatiff takes that stance the Conservatives won't have to do much to discredit him in Ontario, without going after him  about Quebec. The people are not stupid, well mostly.
 
GAP said:
Like I said earlier, if Ignatiff takes that stance the Conservatives won't have to do much to discredit him in Ontario, without going after him  about Quebec. The people are not stupid, well mostly.
Bob Rae would be an even easier target for the conservatives in Ontario. And Ignatiff's pro-war stance. Might win some jilted conservative support. But yea. It's WAY to early to tell. I just hope the NDP loose some seats.
 
"Quebec is a nation within Canada" will make an excellent campaign slogan during the next federal election.
 
UberCree said:
I think you are being to strict with your definition of nation.  Nation means many things and a 'nation within a nation' stance is simply taking a different look at what is currently occurring in Canada in different forms.
We all know what they were really talking about. And I have one word to describe it...
TREASON
 
The problem with the nation position is being demonstrated in Caledonia.  The natives there are demanding that they be treated as a nation which means that they refusse to recognize the juriscdiction of the Ontario Government and the OPP as well as the Federal Government, the RCMP and the Army.  Any move onto their territory, in their view, is tantamount to an invasion by a foreign power.  By accepting the "nation" terminology, IMHO, we are aquiescing to the point of view and saying that they have the same right of appeal to the UNSC as North Korea and Saddam Hussein.

If they are a nation, represented at the United Nations (and that just takes recognition by some mischievous power and an out of sorts General Assembly) then they get to pick and choose what treaties they sign, the terms and the timing.

Language matters.  The difference between nation, state and country is critical and needs to be narrowly defined.
 
+1 Kirkhill

How soon we all forget. Our troops fought and died in former Yugoslavia as each subset of people within decided they were a "Nation", and then went out to claim their "historical" borders, settle "historic" scores and so on. Even when I was there in 2003, it was clear it was not over, everyone was plotting and muttering in their slivo, while on the road to Zagreb, election posters for people and parties implicit in the the civil war were boldly displayed.

Words do have meaning, and while academics can debate without consequences in the ivory tower, in the real world there are serious consequences to the misuse of language.
 
Duceppe envisions sovereign Quebec by 2015
23/10/2006 9:46:16 AM 

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe painted a picture Sunday of the future of Quebec City in 2015, transforming it into the capital of a sovereign country that plays an important role in the global community.

CTV.ca News Staff

    I think we all saw this coming. Read the link below for the full story.

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20061023%2fduceppe_Quebec_061023&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True


 
Not much at all, but I did not bring Caledonia into the thread others did.

I will start a new thread.

 
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