Purpose of Reserve Maintenance trades?

[brin11]

I would like to initiate a discussion regarding the "reason for being" of reserve maintenance trades, specifically the weapons trades.

Most weapons technicians in the reserve world are found in service battalions and very few employed in first line units.  In my experience the first line techs are not well supported with no tools/parts and no mandate to do any first line repair.  The second line techs are not much better off in that we may have the facilities and personnel to conduct repairs/mods but no mandate or ability to do so.  I would like to discuss the following:

1.  What is the purpose of maintaining a set number of reserve maintenance types on paper?  Is this simply for backfill for reg force units during operations?  Is it simply to have the numbers on paper?  Do we have a mandate to provide second line (or maybe first line) maintenance support to surrounding reserve units?

2.  If we do have this mandate for support is it happening in your area/brigade?  If so, how do you go about obtaining your work orders?  Do you have the support of the local ASU for these work orders or do you go "under the table" to obtain parts for units requesting repair by you?  Have you initiated a dialogue with surrounding units so that they realize they have a maintenance shop at their disposal to conduct inspections and repair of their small arms?

3.  If you do not have a mandate to provide support what is your purpose at all?  I'm assuming that your retention is suffering severely because of it.

I know that the mission statement for my maintenance company states clearly that we are to provide second line support to the surrounding reserve units and XX brigade.  I would like some input on how your units handle your training, retention and actual repair of weapons (or vehicles).

Thanks.

 

[Posthumane]

This is a good topic to bring up, and I have often times wondered this myself. While I can't speak definitevily for the weapons side, what you describe sounds exaclty the same as the situation with vehicles. One of the biggest problems that we have in my unit (and I'm sure other svc bn's have this too) is that the local ASU takes on all maintenance work of vehicles leaving us with nothing more than oil changes and the like. Most of our vehicle techs basically end up as acting truckers, providing transport when there aren't enough mse ops around. The only real veh-tech work we get to do once in a while is recovery while out on exercise, but those times are few and far between.

I can't really offer a solution to the problem off the top of my head. While it would be nice if the ASU's would relinquish some of their work to us, I don't think that is very likely to happen. Perhaps they simply don't trust reservists to do a proper job in a reasonable amount of time.

I think this is hurting retention in the tech trades considerably. With no parts and no mandate to do work, not only can we not do our job, but we also cannot train new members. The availability of trades courses is low (usually only offered in summer time) and they are so long most people have trouble getting time off for them (except students). Even when you do go and do your QL3, all you end up learning is general vehicle knowledge and shop practices. There is little to no work experience on the vehicles that we typically use (mlvw, lsvw, hlvw, etc) so members have to develop their experience with these while employed at their unit. Since this doesn't seem to happen much now that we aren't allowed to do anything, we end up with a lot of untrained techs unable to do anything. People tend to move on to more interesting trades which they can actually practice.

 

[Eowyn]

The only real veh-tech work we get to do once in a while is recovery while out on exercise, but those times are few and far between.

I can't really offer a solution to the problem off the top of my head. While it would be nice if the ASU's would relinquish some of their work to us, I don't think that is very likely to happen. Perhaps they simply don't trust reservists to do a proper job in a reasonable amount of time.

I think this is hurting retention in the tech trades considerably. With no parts and no mandate to do work, not only can we not do our job, but we also cannot train new members.

The recovery aspect is a particular sore point.  We have a very difficult time getting pers trained to do that.  At this time, I believe that there are only 2 Cl A reservists allowed to operate the Wrecker.  Last ex, the Wrecker has to stay in garrison because they didn't show up.

One thing further to doing 1st and 2nd line, ASU will only allow the Svc Bn to do some of the work when the Svc Bn has the required skill sets.  Right now, we have very little supervisory capacity, so I can see ASU not letting us work on the vehicles.  Trying to develop the supervisors goes back to Posthumane's comment about training and CFSEME.

 

[brin11]

I'm very pleased you both responded. 

Our vehicle techs actually have things fairly good at our unit.  We have an RSS vehicle tech who's there 5 days a week and works closely with the ASU which is located in the same building.  The ASU will leave certain jobs for our techs as they know they will be supervised by the RSS Sergeant.  Also, we have several ex reg force veh techs there which is quite helpful.  I did not know the veh tech threes was so basic.  Our techs seem quite knowledgeable when they return and the ASU usually seems pleased with their knowledge when they arrive back at the unit for their four's package (usually about 4 months long).

Our weapons techs are the problem.  The ASU shop is located in a separate building and they are not willing to offer work orders to us because they would have to transfer the weapons to a different lock up.  Understandable but frustrating.  We are now attempting to get the local units involved so that we are responsible for their maintanance and pre ATI inspections, for example.  It will be difficult since the local units parade on different nights than we do.  We would require the CQ to come in on our parade night and have their unit pay him to do so for us to access their lock ups. 

Any more thoughts?

 

[Eowyn]

Our wpns techs are even worse shape than our vehicle techs.  I don't think we even have a QL4 wpns tech, which makes the supervision even harder.  We also have greater difficulty getting spare parts.  The interesting thing is that the wpn tech at ASU (or used to be) was one of ours, now on Class B.

I don't even think that our wpns techs are deployable, since all they take are small arms.

 

[Posthumane]

Actually, I don't think we even have any ql3 qualified weapons techs at the moment. We had 3, but they all left to either ppcli, rcmp, and another svc bn. We do however, have a few very experienced veh techs, incl our RSM, and atleast one reg f. sgt in ops/trg. But they are usually busy with other work, and even when they can help train new guys (which they do help with when they have time), we still lack parts to really make the training meaningful. I think units really have to stretch the rules sometimes just to give people the experience they need to operate effectively.

As an aside, I believe all EME common courses are now being run in borden as well, and at conflicting times with QL3 courses, making it even more difficult and time consuming to train people.

And I didn't mean to imply that the veh tech QL3 was basic. It did cover alot of material. But with the complexity of vehicles compared to weapons, 3 months is not enough time to cover each vehicle in detail. You cover things like gas engines, diesel engines, drivetrain, brakes, etc, etc. but in a general manner. Most of the practical parts of the course were done on the Iltis because they were plentiful and easy to work on, and the information does carry over to other veh's in general, but you don't get the familiarity on each specific vehicle required to really be proficient at diagnosing and repairing problems with it. That all comes from OJT at the unit and on your 4's. But without being able to do anything at the unit, the OJT is lacking.

 

[brin11]

Posthumane,

I know what you mean about bending the rules.  Its unfortunate that it must be done this way to get anything accomplished.  I've been informed that in Quebec area reserve service battalions are responsible for all repair and ATI of all reserve units.  They achieved this simply by making it happen themselves apparently rather than any outside encouragement/help.  This is an achievable goal if you have the troops on the ground with a high enough qualification AND the cooperation of other units.  This is what our shop is aiming for.  We are still in the planning process and I'll let you know how it goes.  We presently have 2 QL5 qualified personnel in our shop (one reg force QL5 qualified), one QL4 and the rest untrained.  The Veh techs have six QL5 qualified people and many in various stages of training; not including the RSS person. 

I know one weapons tech who will be deployed in a technical role in an upcoming roto so they seem to be somewhat deployable.  They would only be responsible for small arms of course. 

EME common courses are held regularly in Aldershot with 1 or 2 per summer.  I know they are slated to be run again this coming summer so I assume they may be running in other locations as well other than Borden.

 

[Posthumane]

Good to know about the EME common courses, as we have several new people who had trouble getting on one of the Borden courses due to scheduling. We used to run those courses in house, but I recall hearing something about a new directive that they would all be centrally run to ensure standards are being met. Personally, I would think there would be a more efficient way to enforce standards, but what do I know.

The current situation seems to be causing a snowball effect though. The lack of training tends to discourage troops, so less and less show up. The lack of troops on the ground, however, degrades the training for the people that are there. Right now, getting troops out seems to be a growing issue. My unit is trying to do more interesting combat training with more urban ex's, more ammo, etc. which hopefully will encourage more people to come out.

 

[Eowyn]

We did run an EME Common course last summer.  As with the supervision, qualified instructors can be a constraint.

 

[brin11]

The EME common courses run in Aldershot are monitored by Borden to ensure that they're meeting the standard.  We've had several visits over the years from the trade advisors for reserve maintenance types to inspect what was going on. 

Its always a problem getting qualified supervisors/instructors for any course.  I agree its a pain to find them for EME common as well as QL3/5 courses in Borden.  A veh tech course was cancelled this summer due to lack of instructors.  Two of our guys showed up in Borden only to be told their course wasn't running and sent them home.  What does this do to morale and retention?!?  It's quite frustrating really.

Its also disappointing to hear that the unit is trying to encourage retention by changing to interesting combat training, etc. as mentioned by Posthumane.  Isn't it unfortunate that this is the way they see the retention issue to be solved.  It wouldn't be that difficult to improve trades training if the effort was put into having the troop do the job they are meant to do.  There is nothing wrong with combat training but it needs to be balanced with trades training during the year as well. 

 

[Bert]

Im stationed at 4 Wing.  There is an Air Reserve Flight here and a number of air support MOCs are
represented in the unit.  A substancial portion of the members are ex-military and are carrying their skills over
after retiring from the reg force.  They work in the reg force units supplementing the efforts and
have their own chain of command.  Usually units that have a high deployment readiness get the
most benefit as the reservists are able to supplement the section if a member(s) leaves.  For us,
it assists in the continuation of base support and their integration is quite seamless.  If 4Wing or its
units deploy, definitely reserve support helps to maintain base continuity.

 

[brin11]

Bert, its interesting you mention that.  The air reserve side seems to have their ducks in a row.  Unfortunately, there's not much call for weapons techs in reserve wings.  Lots of use for veh. techs though.  If the local air reserve would have me, I'd be there in a flash.

 

[Bert]

I don't know much about the make-up of reserve flights and the locations they support.  I'd assume
weapon tech trade would be associated with specific Wings and combat aircraft squadrons.  Try
8,4,3 Wing, tac hel locations, and assocaited reserve flights but its only good I guess if you live near
there.  Its interesting because it involves flight line, armoury, and lab work.

 

[gunfxr]

there are no W tech L (R) possn.s in the air reserve as land forces command and Air Command can't agree on them. it appears on this half of canada(western) I've helped train Reservists and it's a waste of time for now because there is nowhere for a wpns tech to go or work for them to do all the repairs go to ASU/GS and the reserve techs don't have the tools or spairs, to make matters worse there is no carrer progression byond MCpl as there is no reserve QL6 course, if a reservist wanted to take the course they would hve to take sept, oct, nov and dec off and try to get on a reg force QL6 and muddle their way through the armement & arty portion, not a good situation.

 

[brin11]

Weapons techs are being promoted to Sgt.  They just haven't decided whether the 6A is a requirement or not.  It's all quite up in the air at the moment apparently.  As for getting the work, we're working on that...

 

[King of Kandahar]

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to flame anyone...

I don't think there should be Reserve Maint trades.  In fact, any Res support trade.
It seems more and more, that their sole purpose is to go on Tour in place of Reg force techs.  The problem with this is that it creates a false sense of employment for Res pers and takes positions away from Reg soldiers.  If you want to have full-time employment and the benefits that go with it, join the Regs.  I have seen quite a few problems arise where Res QL5 techs who CT to Reg have to re-do their QL4 package and the QL5 crse.  This would indicate that the quals req to be a full-time tech aren't possesed by the average Res tech, but they can go on tour... :  There are rarely any R421's on tour because they're only qualified to repair smallarms (they don't have the quals to touch Armament - 25mm etc.)
You did mention that Res Svc Bns have a mandate to provide 1st and 2nd line support to XX Bde, but they rarely do it (if ever).  Most of the Admin/Maint of Res soldiers is done by Reg or class B/A (both are full-time.) :tank:

 

[chrisf]

I don't think there should be Reserve Maint trades.  In fact, any Res support trade.
It seems more and more, that their sole purpose is to go on Tour in place of Reg force techs. 

Absolute nonsense...

After they took away reserve techs (All techs), we were essentially dead in the water in terms of not maintenence, but repair... in the field, if somthing breaks, tag it and hope that supply has another...if not, well too bad... particlularly frustrating when the exercise is scrapped because said piece of kit can't be replaced (Most frustrating when it's relatively simply repairs that even I could do, but aren't allowed to do), it's not at all strange for said piece of kit to disapear for months. We lost a full day and a half of an exercise recently because of an electrical problem that an FCS tech would have fixed in a half hour or so, whereas we now have to tag and loose this truck.

Equally frustrating was when they took away our full time mechanic (Class B), thus cutting preventative maintenence on our vehicles (The theory being that the base is supposed to conduct maintence, but it's a small base, with a small maintenence department, and a large fleet of vehicles, so the maintenence now just doesn't get done). The same result as taking away techs, a vehicle breaks, and we loose it to the base VOR line for weeks, even months, when our own mechanics could have fixed it in a few days.

 

[King of Kandahar]

After they took away reserve techs (All techs), we were essentially dead in the water in terms of not maintenence, but repair... in the field, if somthing breaks, tag it and hope that supply has another...if not, well too bad... particlularly frustrating when the exercise is scrapped because said piece of kit can't be replaced (Most frustrating when it's relatively simply repairs that even I could do, but aren't allowed to do), it's not at all strange for said piece of kit to disapear for months. We lost a full day and a half of an exercise recently because of an electrical problem that an FCS tech would have fixed in a half hour or so, whereas we now have to tag and loose this truck.

Equally frustrating was when they took away our full time mechanic (Class B), thus cutting preventative maintenence on our vehicles (The theory being that the base is supposed to conduct maintence, but it's a small base, with a small maintenence department, and a large fleet of vehicles, so the maintenence now just doesn't get done). The same result as taking away techs, a vehicle breaks, and we loose it to the base VOR line for weeks, even months, when our own mechanics could have fixed it in a few days.

I do believe that each Res unit should have an Integral Maint org staffed by Reg Force techs.  As you indicated above "an FCS tech would have fixed in a half hour or so" there are no Res FCS techs, therefore the repairs were by Reg techs.  "Most frustrating when it's relatively simply repairs that even I could do, but aren't allowed to do"...there are tasks that are relitively simple to repair, but without quals, there is no accountability if the item is destroyed by the repair.  Just follow the PRS and thats it.  Law laid down by LEMS.  What do you mean by "cutting preventative maintenence on our vehicles "  are you saying that oil changes etc aren't being done?  Most preventative maint is done by drivers, not mechs (with the exception of the CF2027 semi-annual inspections).
In terms of quals, it's not the Res Techs fault he's just not trained as effectively as Reg.  This doesn't include Air Res EME, they take Reg QL courses (I had one on my QL3).  Look at the Integ Maint of 400 Sqn (Borden)  They have a Reg Veh Tech MCpl, Cpl and then the rest are reserves.  Effective, but most of the work is done during the day by the full-time techs.
I'm not reserve bashing, I CT/OT'd in '97 after 6 years as a Res Inf MCpl.  The techs at our unit primarily acted as MSE ops/RQMS staff in the field and in garrison they did mostly Dvr Maint to the vehs.  Not effective employment.

 

[brin11]

author=King of Kandahar  The techs at our unit primarily acted as MSE ops/RQMS staff in the field and in garrison they did mostly Dvr Maint to the vehs.  Not effective employment.

King,

That's exactly my point.  It's not effective employment.  See my first post regarding this issue. 

If we can get a mandate to provide second line maintenance to local reserve units we will do several things.  These include maintain proficiency on weapons (or vehicles) we are trained to repair (small arms), provide quick support to local units that, otherwise, may not get their equipment repaired in a timely fashion and reduce the workload of already busy reg force units.  These are all worthy goals that I believe can be done if you have the motivation and expertise to achieve them.  Something I would like to see in the future are specific reserve courses provided by CFSEME that would train an already qualified QL5 technician on armament equipment if this is a necessity at their unit.  This would be useful for reserve artillery units as well as making the technician more employable with the reg force side of things.  There would be no use in sending a technician to this course if they would not be able to maintain their skill set; the knowledge would be lost and the course useless to that individual.  They could simply stick a reservist on a reg force threes/fives for that portion of the course.  I believe that some of what you see in the lack of skills in the reserve technicians is part training and part skill fade since so many of them simply do user maintenance at their units, as you said. 

So many ideas....you know the rest.

 

[King of Kandahar]

I got 'ya.  Like I said, I had no intention of bashing.  There has to be a reform in the reserves in regards to trg/employment.  Much like the Air Res or US Army Reserve.  Have equiv trg for regs and reserves in all MOS'.  Then when it comes time for tours, restructure the employment pd.  It could begin with job protection and allowing Res pers the ability to go "operational" for a set period (lets say 2 years) to go on tour without losing their staus at home units.  This "operational" pd could include a year of employment in a reg workshop before tour pre-training to hone skills etc.  Then after the tour, 6 mos of post employment at the workshop to once again benefit from the experience the tech gained.  He could then return to his home unit with a wealth of experience.