Purple Trades: Definition & Trg Discussion

[McG]

Why have one standard for one purple trade and a different one for another?

If the land element of one purple trade is large enough to provide the critical mass to support land operations, force generation and domestic requirements while the land element of another purple trade cannot be large enough to provide that critical mass, then those two trades may take a very different approach.  As was discussed earlier, those blue & black uniformed pers in land field units without the land enviromental training will have to be posted out.  Their continued presence in land units will violate the stated intent of the CANFORGEN (to have all pers deploying to land operations properly trained to the land standard) and so they must go back to their own environments. 

I am sure you have heard the saying "You are a Soldier First, a Tradesman Second". 

... of course, this logic is irrelevant on a ship (sailor ≠ soldier) or in the air (airman ≠ soldier).

 

[time expired]

Watching this thread I see the chickens of unification finally coming
home to roost,all the justifications and lies that were propagated
to prove what a great idea it was  are finally proving what it really
was,a gigantic money saving scheme and a chance for a few"onside"
senior officers to get promoted.All it took was a few real "you could
really get killed"postings and the failures of unification become readily
apparent.
                  Regards

 

[George Wallace]

I know that George, but that CANFORGEN pretty much says that at a Svc Bn, people wearing a green beret are going to do PLQ-L but people with a blue beret won't. They will deploy overseas with no PLQ-L. How does that make sense? What makes them so different from a air int or sigint. Why have one standard for one purple trade and a different one for another?

Are you sure you interpreted that correctly.  The policy used to be, at least, that a person going on PLQ from any Bde Unit, no matter what Element they belonged to, would do the PLQ-L.  That meant anyone posted to a Land Formation, no matter what colour of DEU they wore, no matter what Trade, would all do the exact same training.  So, you being in a Svc Bn would meet those same rules.

I didn't know that they had changed.

 

[meni0n]

From the CANFORGEN George:

(B) NON-ARMY- MANAGED OCC. PLQ-L IS NOW THE ONLY JUNIOR LEADER COURSE FOR THE FOLLOWING NON-ARMY-MANAGED OCC:

(1) MP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS)

(2) MSE OP (L)

(3) SUP TECH (L)

(4) RMS CLK (L)

(5) COOK (L)

(6) AMMO TECH (L)

(7) POSTAL CLK (ALL ENVIRONMENTS)

(Cool COMM RSCH

(9) INT OP NOTE: ALL MP, POSTAL CLK, COMM RSCH AND INT OP OCC PERSONNEL REQUIRING JR LDR TRG, REGARDLESS OF ENVIRONMENT, SHALL BE LOADED ON PLQ-L. FOR MSE OP, SUP TECH, RMS CLERK, COOK AND AMMO TECH OCCS, ONLY PERSONNEL OF THE LAND ENVIRONMENT WILL BE LOADED ON PLQ-L. ARMY G1 WILL APPORTION PLQ-L VACANCIES TO CAREER MANAGERS BASED ON CLS PRIORITIES.


This basically forces the non-army environment people at the Svc Bn to do CFPLQ. Now the question is, why a Air Int Op has to go to PLQ-L while Air Sup Tech has to do CFPLQ? Where is the logic in that?

 

[armyvern]

This basically forces the non-army environment people at the Svc Bn to do CFPLQ. Now the question is, why a Air Int Op has to go to PLQ-L while Air Sup Tech has to do CFPLQ? Where is the logic in that?

Exactly what we're all wondering.

That previously "purple" Sup Tech may also one day find him/herself a Leader placed in an authority position on ground in Afghanistan. I say "previously" as we are no longer purple when we can't all do/aren't all required to do applicable training based upon being posted "anywhere". If we can't be posted "anywhere" - we, by definition are no longer "purple".  I can only assume that this CANFORGEN means that either:

1) Only land suppies will now serve on ground in war zones; or that
2) Somehow, Sea or Air Suppies don't need Land training to be placed in on ground in war zones. <--- And THAT really worries me.

Note: I'm not saying that an Air Int OP should not be doing PLQ-L; I think they should be based upon the previously stated reasons that they will find themselves one day in a leadership role in a land war zone. But, I think the same is applicable to air and sea sup techs - and all purple trades.

 

[armyvern]

Are you sure you interpreted that correctly.  The policy used to be, at least, that a person going on PLQ from any Bde Unit, no matter what Element they belonged to, would do the PLQ-L.  That meant anyone posted to a Land Formation, no matter what colour of DEU they wore, no matter what Trade, would all do the exact same training.  So, you being in a Svc Bn would meet those same rules.

I didn't know that they had changed.

Nope George.

Air & Sea Sup Techs no longer do SQ or PLQ-L as per the CANFORGEN. Even those currently serving in Land Op positions. See my previous wrt to a couple of my blue/black folk being removed from nomination for SQ due to their uniform colour.

 

[EW]

Comm Rsch has been "owned" by the Army for a few years now.  Hence the reason for the Army PLQ for all. 

At the time a Comm Rsch MWO, I remember when that decision was made a few years ago.   There was a lot of hand wringing about how all the trades senior appointments would be made by Army boards in the future.  The issue was that these boards would be looking at the career track of Army MWOs and see the conventional progression of section/det commander, Sgt, Troop/Platoon WO, Ops Sgt/WO, CSM/SSM, Foreman/Yeoman of Signals (for those other C&E trades), RSM, etc, etc; but with Comm Rsch (outside of 1CSR/1CDHSR/JSR, 2EW Sqn) they would see some funky acronyms, and job titles.  Led to some significant reorganization of the CFSOC at Leitrim from the Navy's Divisional system to something that the Army might be able to recognize.  There was also a move made to increase the percentage of Army uniforms, maintain the Navy uniform percentage, and decrease the number of 291'ers in blue.

Even a few grizzled Comm Rsch CPO1's grudgingly admitted that the Army taking responsibility for the trade was a 'good thing,' and truly representative of the future.  I only hope that means that PLQ-L for Comm Rsch, regardless of uniform, is here to stay.

 

[George Wallace]

Nope George.

Air & Sea Sup Techs no longer do SQ or PLQ-L as per the CANFORGEN. Even those currently serving in Land Op positions. See my previous wrt to a couple of my blue/black folk being removed from nomination for SQ due to their uniform colour.

This is just plain silly.  Some windowless, cubicle bound, officer, justifying his/her existence in DisneyLand on the Rideau has just undone what someone with real life experience had corrected a few years ago.  This is plain retarded.

I think we all agree on that.

Now I also ask: why does that same type of person have to sit back in their comfy chair, sipping mocha lattes, in front of a computer screen, day dreaming and renaming every course in the CF.  I went on a tasking at the Inf School a few years back, and when filling out the Info sheet during inclearance, I had no idea what qualifications I held, as someone in their wisdom had renamed them all.  I had no clue what a DP1 was, so I didn't tick it off. 

As long as the CFPLQ is more than the old JLC and covers what the CLC covered, we don't have to worry about Purple Trades being qualified ISSC.  (Talk about dating one's self.)  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

Int Op and Comm Rsrch are in particular demand on deployed ops right now; for them, it's not a case of "If you haven't been, you're going" but "If your waiver period is up, you're going again."

Given the land-centric nature of much of the deployed work being done by those trades, regardless of DEU, the decision to push them all into PLQ-L made sense - give everyone that exposure, awareness, knowledge, and shared experience with others they will be working alongside in the future.  Other MOSIDs do not deploy as great a proportion of their pers.

On the SQ issue:  It's a red herring.  BMQ has been lengthened to include much of the content that previously was covered on SQ, making the old SQ redundant.  There is a group caught in the transition - and I'm not sure how that's being managed.  But for folks who've started after the enhanced BMQ was begun there's only a minimal delta in training time - and some of that is recovered because it's a single course, so less admin periods required.

 

[armyvern]

A red herring?

How is it a red herring when my Army uniformed Sup Techs still need the SQ to be posted to a field Unit ... but Air and Blue don't? And it's a pre-req for service in some field Units? (That precludes us from posting them to field Units where it is a pre-req).

If it's affecting who my trade can post and where -- it's not a red herring.

If the issue is that some of this is now being taught on BMQ -- then WHY exactly are Army DEU Suppies still going to be required to undergo SQ to do their jobs (and the fact that Air/Navy are no longer allowed to undergo this to do their jobs)??

If the issue is that SQ is no longer going to be a requirement to go to the field ... why are land uniformed suppies still required to do it as per the CANFORGEN? Because we're not purple anymore?? There's lots of blue/black around here that we can't do much with now. If it's affecting us -- it's no red herring.

 

[McG]

Now the question is, why a Air Int Op has to go to PLQ-L while Air Sup Tech has to do CFPLQ? Where is the logic in that?

Go back two posts prior to your repeating this question in order to see the answer. 

As long as the CFPLQ is more than the old JLC and covers what the CLC covered, ...

CFPLQ does not achieve your criteria, but PLQ (L) does.

This is just plain silly.  Some windowless, cubicle bound, officer, justifying his/her existence in DisneyLand on the Rideau has just undone what someone with real life experience had corrected a few years ago. 

George,
If you go back to where the full CANFORGEN was posted, you will notice that it is direction out of the Armed Forces Council.  I don't think the CDS or any of the ECSs feel the need to justify their existence.  Further, whatever "correction" you think was done by "someone with real life experience" had failed.  If you go back through this thread you will read that personnel are deploying on land operations without the proper land enviromental training simply because they happened to be posted to non-land units at those critical moments in their career.  That is just not on, and this CANFORGEN is a step in the direction of rectifying that.

 

[CountDC]

I see it as a move towards where they want things to go - purple will no longer apply to us anymore.  We will be posted to the element we belong to - navy to ships/naval bases, army to army and air to air.  Last CM brief I attended about a month ago this was stressed to us as the way of the future with perhaps one out of element posting to see how the other side did things.

 

[Chief Clerk]

Its like one big circle - the Canadian Forces - we will eventually go back to 3 elements - the purple folks will finally be able to be where they want.  I think our leaders may have believed combining the ARMY, AIRFORCE and NAVY would save big $, but it would seem at the sake of the Purple Jobies!  And from what I can see - we made EVEN MORE Headquarters with even more Officer positions - yet most worker bees (ORs/NCM/whatever you care to call us) MOCs are in the RED!  As quick as a young person joins, one releases.  And hey lets offer the young folks a really good contract (read 3 then X amount with nothing in between to give you choices and change the contract we had that was not broke!).  Over the years I have seen it would seem, small pushes towards going our separate ways, because of course anything big would be disloyal in some folks eyes.  Hopefully this will give us back our sense of belonging - and for some of us maybe even take our old cap badges back!  Give us the choice of being ARMY, AIRFORCE or NAVY - Let the purple jobbie know the true meaning of Espirit de Corps, loving the smell of cordite or jet fuel or whatever the hell the Navy loves (beer - JUST joking guys) in the AM -  or at least know forever who your food chain is when you wake each AM!  Do yah think this could happen within 2 years - as I will have over 30 and retirement is looking good!
PS - like the cap badge CountDC - were you truly an Admin Weenie?

 

[CountDC]

  Give us the choice of being ARMY, AIRFORCE or NAVY - Let the purple jobbie know the true meaning of Espirit de Corps, loving the smell of cordite or jet fuel or whatever the hell the Navy loves (beer - JUST joking guys) in the AM -  or at least know forever who your food chain is when you wake each AM!  Do yah think this could happen within 2 years - as I will have over 30 and retirement is looking good!
PS - like the cap badge CountDC - were you truly an Admin Weenie?

choice of ARMY or NAVY for clerks -too many already in the AIRFORCE.

Beer is right!!! Just leave out the AM part - smells good anytime.

Don't know if it will happen in 2 but the push is on.

Yes I was an Admin Weenie before the great merge.  I was an RMS Clk before they existed although we used the term FAdmin Clk at work.  I was Fin remustered to Admin and was used to do both trades at the HQ as needed.

 

[Scot57]

Comm Rsch has been "owned" by the Army for a few years now.  Hence the reason for the Army PLQ for all. 

At the time a Comm Rsch MWO, I remember when that decision was made a few years ago.   There was a lot of hand wringing about how all the trades senior appointments would be made by Army boards in the future.  The issue was that these boards would be looking at the career track of Army MWOs and see the conventional progression of section/det commander, Sgt, Troop/Platoon WO, Ops Sgt/WO, CSM/SSM, Foreman/Yeoman of Signals (for those other C&E trades), RSM, etc, etc; but with Comm Rsch (outside of 1CSR/1CDHSR/JSR, 2EW Sqn) they would see some funky acronyms, and job titles.  Led to some significant reorganization of the CFSOC at Leitrim from the Navy's Divisional system to something that the Army might be able to recognize.  There was also a move made to increase the percentage of Army uniforms, maintain the Navy uniform percentage, and decrease the number of 291'ers in blue.

Even a few grizzled Comm Rsch CPO1's grudgingly admitted that the Army taking responsibility for the trade was a 'good thing,' and truly representative of the future.  I only hope that means that PLQ-L for Comm Rsch, regardless of uniform, is here to stay.

Excellent post. I am out of the system (Supply) now but I have long advocated for the Supply trade to do the same. Can't speak for the other Logistic trades (although I do have an opinion .. ) .... their is a reason why the EME Branch is stronger and their affiliation and idenity greater then that of the Logistics Branch. They wear one uniform no matter if they serve on an Army Base or Air Base. IMO, there is no need for a Sup Tech to be wearing a Air Uniform .. period. An argument could be made for the Navy storesman. The Air Force term ACSSS - equals Combat Service Support. The old argument of needing a "true AIR" Sup tech because of the unique high tech avionics/ equipment (which was used against me) has long ago passed. High tech is everywhere. Two uniforms is all that is required. Army and Navy. A realigment of those wearing Navy could be done thus ensuring that those Sup Techs serving in the field are wearing Army, including those posted to the Air Force performing CSS.

... but, the battle continues. There are alot of senior Air Force Logistics Officers (and CWO's). 

 

[LuvsMud]

If I understand correctly a Navy Med Tech will be required to complete SQ and NETP? I've done a search but haven't found much info on NETP. Is there another name for the course? When would you complete it? I'm told Navy Med Techs won't be posted to a ship until they've done their QL5 if ever. Newbies are usually attached to a Fd Amb. Is this correct?

 

[aesop081]

I've done a search but haven't found much info on NETP. Is there another name for the course? When would you complete it?

It is called NETP.........

You have to complete this course if you are posted to a ship.

 

[DiverMedic]

If I understand correctly a Navy Med Tech will be required to complete SQ and NETP? I've done a search but haven't found much info on NETP. Is there another name for the course? When would you complete it? I'm told Navy Med Techs won't be posted to a ship until they've done their QL5 if ever. Newbies are usually attached to a Fd Amb. Is this correct?

You need NETP (Naval Environmental Training Program) to go on ship.  Also need your 5s as a medic to go on ship.  90% of new medics are sent to Fd Ambs.  The other 9% are service couples or extenuating circumstances.  1% are just lucky....

DM

 

[LuvsMud]

9% are service couples eh? ... "How you dooooooin?"  :-* 
Hehehe I'm teasing of course. Thank you for the info.

 

[medicineman]

If I understand correctly a Navy Med Tech will be required to complete SQ and NETP? I've done a search but haven't found much info on NETP. Is there another name for the course? When would you complete it? I'm told Navy Med Techs won't be posted to a ship until they've done their QL5 if ever. Newbies are usually attached to a Fd Amb. Is this correct?

Something to get used to - you're a Med Tech - full stop.  The uniform is just the clothes they tell you to wear to work.  I'm Army, with Aeromedical Evacuation wings, attach posted to a submarine - figure that one out.  If you luck out and get posted to a coast, you'll get to go on ship - after your NETP and 5's, and not necessarily in that order.  The 5's are more important.

Have a gooder.

MM