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Psychology and the Soldier

I think the reasons each individual gives should not be treated so lightly. If one person joins for patriotism and another joins for the travel, the most important aspect is that they are in and putting the nation's interests ahead of their own.
 
BulletMagnet said:
Personally I think everyone is going for the easy answer...I'm good at it...someone has to do it....etc etc

There is more to it then that, there has to be or we are very very sad creatures indeed. I mean I cannot see "I am good at it" and "it's a job" "and it's stable" being sufficient reason to pay the price that we do. Or at the very least I know it doesn't cut it as reasons enough for me.

I'll admit it, I can be a sad sad individual. I look at it this way, and maybe it will help make my previous reply make a little more sense. I used to work as a lighting tech in theatre. I would spend my days at great heights working. I was risking myself for peoples entertainment in a way. I know that in my previous career I could have been killed any number of ways, electrocution, falling from heights (even though I wore the stupid harness), being crushed. There were many ways for me to go there, I feel that if I'm putting myself on the line, it might as well be for a greater good than a few audience members. At least my work will be of a greater benefit in the army. Hope that clears my post up a bit, however I fear I made it a little more clouded.
 
I think the media (war movies, etc.) might've brainwashed me when I was a kid.  :rage: :salute: :army:

No but seriously, I've always gravitated towards tactics and war for as far back as I can remember. I don't know why.
 
It's a bug, it will eat at you until you satisfy it. You all know deep down in your hearts, in the very essence of your being that had you chosen a civvy life...that bug would have eaten away at you. The decision not to go into the forces would be your only regret.

But what do I know.Only my two cents.
 
Lune said:
I think the media (war movies, etc.) might've brainwashed me when I was a kid.  :rage: :salute: :army:

No but seriously, I've always gravitated towards tactics and war for as far back as I can remember. I don't know why.
Rishi said:
It's a bug, it will eat at you until you satisfy it. You all know deep down in your hearts, in the very essence of your being that had you chosen a civvy life...that bug would have eaten away at you. The decision not to go into the forces would be your only regret.

But what do I know.Only my two cents.


No so seriously someone willing to put in some effort into an answer or will this thread just fill up with wanna be's and recruits.....

 
BulletMagnet said:
will this thread just fill up with wanna be's and recruits.....

I certainly hope not as it is a valid question. I have stayed in the CF despite some serious frustrations and put up with alot that most people wouldnt ( getting more money than me). If anything BM, you made me take another look at things.

I would venture to say that somedays, it is the people i'm with who keep me in. The sense of pride in shared hardships. The sense of accomplishement in having done things most people cannot imagine......

I dont know but maybe thats the start of an answer.
 
Ok so here an answer or a theory behind an answer...No these are not my words I am nowhere near smart enough to come up with this.

The Author will remain nameless until they decide to reveal themselves

"The theory of cognitive dissonance is that people will change their cognitions to match the already conducted actions; this has been tested time again and generally, it's held true.  The reasoning is that we've already done something, and we can't change it, but we have to cope with doing it, so we instead convince ourselves we enjoyed doing it.

The military takes advantage of this all the time.  Some of the most enjoyable courses out there are some of the biggest **** courses.  Expanded to a sociological scale, it's possible that we're incorporating this dissonance into a social facilitative environment -- and that's why we do what we do."
 
Thats one explanation but ive never been one for that kind of mombojumbo....... ;D

 
BulletMagnet,

The reasons people join the military are as varied as the individuals.  Many probably do not even know why they join, because what they believe, or use to convince themselves or others, may not truly align with their underling personal motivations for their decision to enrol.

Worthy references range from Grossman's On Killing and On Combat to Dixon's On the Psychology of Military Incompetence. In some cases, a desire to fit the perceived models of certain stereotypes in such works (both facts and fictional representations of soldiers, sailors and airmen) become the personal motivation to join.

It may seem like a simple question, but there are no simple answers.
 
Hmmm I think people are straying a bit, I am not asking why people join...that is though varied a much simpler answer then the one I am asking

What I asked was knowing the pricewe pay (from exposure) why is it we do what we do so willingly.. Of course thats a nutshell paraphrase I was much more eloquent in my original post.
 
BulletMagnet said:
What I asked was knowing the pricewe pay (from exposure) why is it we do what we do so willingly..

The it begs to question why people stay. If people are willing to pay a high price, what are they getting in return ?
 
CDN Aviator said:
The it begs to question why people stay. If people are willing to pay a high price, what are thet getting in return ?

Distilled to a pure form right there...What do we get in return for such a high cost paid, what is it about us that makes us willing pay that price and get what we get in return. Where as the majoriy of normal people would never even contemplate it.
 
Fortitude, Humility, Empathy, Courage... People in the Military seem to have a stronger disposition to these traits and are the kind of people who put others before themselves, otherwise I doubt they would be risking their lives.

I would go further as to say as this is some sort of evolutionary response to "Put the good of the herd before yourself" to promote the continuation of your herd/species. In this case, our "herd" or "species" is much much larger, it is Canada, it is our Allies, and in a general sense anyone who needs and wants our help.

I've always wanted to help people live their lives better. Even if its going to be indirectly, by fixing a radio for a SigOp so he can do his job.

As members of the Military, we get the satisfaction that we are making a difference in the world, even if it's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Just my two cents.
 
I think the question of why one joins and why one is willing
to die are two very separate issues.There are as many reasons
why one joined as there are people in the CAF,I, for instance ,was
born in England at the beginning of WW2, all my role models were
in uniform,it follows that I saw my future in the the military.This
did not change with my families emigration to Canada, although
I must admit my decision had little to do with any feeling of
patriotism for Canada,it was more of a desire to experience
military life as my forebearers had.
The decision to put ones life in danger has everthing to do with
the feeling of belonging to something that is bigger and more
important than oneself,the platoon,company or regiment.This
is the thing, that most civilians have difficulty understanding,that
the soldier is willing to bury and even sacrifice his own individuality
for the good of his group,the further we get into the 21 cent.,a very
difficult concept for most people to understand.
To sum it up soldiers are willing to die rather than let their "brothers"
in the next foxhole down.
                                  Regards
 
adaminc said:
As members of the Military, we get the satisfaction that we are making a difference in the world, even if it's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

1- We ? I was not aware that you were in the CF already.

2- Satisfaction ? I've done alot of things since i joined and i still dont know if those things made a difference. Only many, many more years will pass before that jury is out.
 
adaminc said:
Fortitude, Humility, Empathy, Courage... People in the Military seem to have a stronger disposition to these traits and are the kind of people who put others before themselves, otherwise I doubt they would be risking their lives.

Oh yeah, I've seen the days when this forum simply oozed humility and empathy all over the interweb's tubes.   
 
Interesting BM... 

Having never deployed, and only having spent 4 years as PRes... my thoughts are "outside the box"  - more or less ramblings for thought ...

This reminds me of another discussion I had once: (looking from the other side...)

How does the suicide bomber bring him/herself to detonate?
How did the Kamikaze Pilot intentionally fly his plane down into enemy ships?

Could the answer be altruism? A genuine desire to put the needs of others before yourself?
Is someone who is willing to put themselves in harms way and possibly die in combat just as likely to step in front of a bus to save a child? Is someone who would step in front of a bus to save a child, likely willing to die in combat? 

I have heard a counter theroy to Congnative dissonance based on Reductionism that argues a simpler motivation - incorporating altrusim and it's affect on choices made in the past influencing choices made in the future, such as selfless physical actions being praised, causing chemical reactions that lead to a "warm fuzzy" feeling, leading to a further seeking of praise.  Too me, this sounds too animalistic - too primal. I think it must be more complex than that.

Howard Rachlin of the Psychology Dept of the state university of New York published in the Cambridge University Press:
http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/21/35/bbs00002135-00/bbs.rachlin.html

How are patterns of behavior learned and how are they maintained?  Consider the following set of cases.  Four soldiers are ordered to advance on the enemy.  The first and second advance; the third and fourth do not.  Of the two who advance, the first is just obeying orders; he advances because he fears the consequences of disobedience more than he fears the enemy.  The second is not just obeying orders; he advances because he believes it is his patriotic duty to advance.  Of the two who do not advance, the third soldier remains in his foxhole out of fear of the enemy; he weighs the aversive consequences of disobeying orders less than the aversive consequences of advancing.  The fourth soldier does not advance because he believes that the orders are immoral.

            No one, neither the biologist, the cognitivist, the Skinnerian behaviorist, nor the teleological behaviorist, denies that there are important differences between the two soldiers who advance and between the two soldiers who do not advance.  But the biologist and cognitivist alike see all the differences in thought, feeling, moral sentiment of the soldiers, as contemporary with their current behavior.  Behaviorists do not disagree that internal differences exist but their focus is rather on non-contemporary events; the Skinnerian behaviorist is concerned to discover crucial differences in the soldiers’ extrinsic reinforcement histories.  The teleological behaviorist is concerned to discover the patterns of behavior of which each soldiers’ present act forms a part (intrinsic reinforcement). Note, however, that even the concept of extrinsic reinforcement must rely at some point on intrinsic reinforcement.  According to Premack’s theory, for example, eating reinforces lever pressing because eating is (intrinsically) of high value and lever pressing is (intrinsically) of lower value.  I am claiming here that an abstract pattern of behavior may be (intrinsically) of high value while the sum of the values of its particular components are of (intrinsically) lower value.  Value, in either case, would be determined by a choice test.

            Let us first consider extrinsic reinforcement.  By careful selection, with humans, it is possible to reinforce members of a set of particular acts belonging to a wide or abstractly defined class of acts (a rule) so that particular acts that have never been reinforced, but that obey the rule, are performed. That is, humans are able to generalize across instances of complex rules and, with simple rules, nonhumans are also able to do so.  Behavior thus learned is said to be rule-governed.  Imitation (of certain people) and following orders (in certain circumstances) are two such kinds of rules. There is no space here to discuss the several techniques developed for generating rule-governed behavior with extrinsic reinforcement  (see Hayes, 1989, for a collection of articles on the subject), nor to discuss current disputes about whether language precedes complex rule-following or whether rule-following precedes language (Sidman, 1997).

            The behavior of the first soldier, who advances because he fears the consequences of disobeying orders more than he fears the enemy, and that of the third soldier, who fails to advance because he fears the enemy more than the consequences of disobeying orders, may be explained in terms of conflicting rules.  Regardless of the complexity of the relation between the consequences of the present act and those of past acts, it is the weighting of the extrinsic consequences of the present act (the magnitudes, probabilities, and delays of enemy fire versus those of punishment for disobedience) that determines the behavior of these two soldiers.

            Moreover, it may be possible to account for the initial learning of ethical rules and principles, such as those that govern the altruistic behavior of the second and fourth soldiers, in terms of extrinsic social reinforcement at home or school or church. But extrinsic reinforcement cannot account for the maintenance of altruistic behavior.  An altruistic act may never be reinforced.  The second and fourth soldiers (as well as the woman who runs into the burning building to save someone else’s child) are as capable of weighing the immediate consequences of their acts as are the first and third soldiers.  But those consequences are ignored by these two soldiers.  The second and fourth soldiers, both of whose behavior has been brought under the control of highly abstract principles (we are assuming), are surely capable of discriminating between the extrinsic consequences of their present acts and the extrinsic social approval or disapproval of their past behavior at home, school or church where the principles were learned.  A person capable of bringing his or her behavior into conformance with an abstract principle by means of extrinsic reinforcement, and of transferring the application of that rule across situations, could not fail to discriminate the present context (where social approval is dwarfed by the possibility of death) from situations where the rule-governance may have been initially learned.  Yet the altruistic act is performed anyway.

            Such acts must be maintained not by extrinsic reinforcement but by intrinsic reinforcement.  The patterns of those acts (patriotic, ethical, altruistic), perhaps supported during their formation by a scaffold of extrinsic reinforcement, must be highly valuable in themselves.  If they depended on extrinsic reinforcement for maintenance they would not be maintained.

            In Premack’s terms, valuable patterns would be chosen if offered as whole patterns in a free choice situation.  In cases such as the patriotic and ethical soldiers and the woman saving a child, imagine a giant concurrent-chain schedule with years-long terminal link alternatives: heroism versus timidity, reverence for life versus toleration of killing, kindness versus cruelty.  Because of their intrinsic value the chosen patterns are final causes of their component acts and may themselves be effects of still wider final causes: a coherent concept of self; living a happier life, living a better life.

            Most of us would indeed choose to be heros rather than cowards, to revere life rather than to kill, to be kind rather than cruel.  We realize that the former alternatives of each pair are actually patterns of happy lives and the latter, of unhappy lives.  But these alternatives are rarely offered to us as wholes.  Rather, we are faced with a series of particular choices with outcomes of limited temporal extent.  The altruists among us, however, have chosen such more extended patterns as wholes; they are the patterns most of us would choose if we could choose them as wholes.  But to do this we would need to evaluate particular alternatives not by their particular consequences but rather by whether or not they fit into the larger patterns.  This of course is a problem of self-control.




Cognitive dissonance ... a sort of self brain washing...  a higher cognative theory, and somewhat of a survival instinct. As I understand it, your mind's attempt to make sense of conflicting beliefs and actions - "developping an aquired taste"

The problem I have with cognative dissonance is that personally, I know that I don't enjoy my job - but won't leave because of the responsability I have to my family to help put a roof over their head, and food on the table. Following the cognative dissonance theroy - by now I should have convinced myself that I love my job completely! If someone were to tell me (true or not) that all other jobs in my field were much worse, and other people envied my position... would I enjoy it more?

I don't think cognative dissonance could exist without some sort of outside influence - no one is going to do something they don't want to unless someone else says they should, or they must.
In the case of something like the military would this create "groupthink".
http://choo.fis.utoronto.ca/FIS/Courses/LIS2149/Groupthink.html

You certianly got me thinking BulletMagnet! There are many theories on why you do what you do... but who's to say which one is right, or if there is one answer for all.

muffin
 
Chicks dig soldiers and I wanna kill terrorists. There's just something about the sex and violence that appeals to me... :)
 
Well now....my synapses are burning up pretty good trying to puzzle this out and put it into words...

Why do I put up with it? (the sweats, the lack of sleep some nights, the looks from certain people, etc etc) Why, after 15+ years, do I still do it (especially when I can make a

Well, I guess, for me, it comes down to a little bit of what a lot of other people have already said.

I still remember the 3 reasons I wrote down in Cornwallis when they asked us why we joined. They've changed slightly, but mostly hold true.

Patriotism is in there; altruism a bit; also because I am good at what I do; to protect the sheeple; a belief there is "evil" in the world....
I guess the biggest thing it comes down to "Why I still do it?" well..... that has to be because I believe that what I do (what WE ALL do) DOES make a difference, in the grand scheme of things. If I didn't have that, I couldn't do it anymore.

Maybe it'as a bit self-delusional, maybe a bit of brain washing (where's my tinfoil helmet again?  :warstory:), but I'm ok with that.

Wook
 
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