Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

[Occam]

Were I Cpl Bloggins' supervisor at a highly sought after posting, and I knew that Bloggins just got posted into the position in APS 2012, and Bloggins found out that he scored high enough on the merit list to be promoted to MCpl in APS 2013 (or squeak through on a December 2012 promotion) and be forced to move due to lack of a position at that rank...

...I would certainly not be at all surprised to see Cpl Bloggins refuse the promotion in order to a) possibly remain in the position because he was only just rewarded with said highly sought after posting; and b) maintain some stability after having just finished moving his family from somewhere else, and I think it's unreasonable to ask them to move after only being in one place for 12 months if they don't really want to move.  That goes doubly so if the CM has intentions to post him to a high-tempo unit, and Bloggins just finished a high-tempo posting (and got himself some good promotion PERs out of it) before coming and working for me.

If Bloggins wants to stay where he is for another year (or two?) and the CM sees no problem with it, who am I as the member's supervisor to say he's wrong?  He's made a personal decision in order to best serve his own needs as well as the CF's.  His decision isn't telling me that he has no aspirations of advancement...only that he has no aspirations of advancement in the near future if it means that his quality of life will suffer.  There's a difference.

 

[Paladium]

You provide a sound example - I am going with only the info that was provided.  Obvious the more info provided - such as in your hypothetical case family - high temp and stuff like that provides greater insight.  If the situation was soley based on hey i like this place no family - no attachments in the area - single - is that reasoning sound enough to stay?  Who knows we can come up with a million scenarios that could justify staying and refusing a promotion - but the justification has to be there.  There are a lot of people who place various justifications why they want or need to stay someplace and they all don't hold water and even in cases where you think someone has more than valid reasons to stay - the CF posts them anyways - we have all seen that.

Earlier it was discussed that he could initaite his paperwork in advance of the promotion even coming.  What aare your thoughts in this regard?  Should he do it now (pre-emptive strike) or wait?

 

[Occam]

I think that regardless of the member's reasons, be they complex or simple, he/she should have the choice to refuse a promotion if they choose to do so, without further consequence.  The policy that DGMC came out with is fairly clear.  If the member is refusing postings without supporting requests for CCM, compassionate, etc., then that can be dealt with through the AR process.  They are free to refuse promotions without further career implication, so long as they move when told to.  I don't think the PER is the place to comment if a member chooses to refuse a posting.  The PER is meant to indicate performance at the current rank level, and an estimate of potential at the next rank level - not commentary on the member's reasons for refusing a promotion.

As for initiating the paperwork in advance of the promotion coming?  I would think that's unwise.  That said, the member's CoC is obviously in contact with the career shop, and it shouldn't come as any surprise that the member will be ranked high enough for promotion, or that the member intends to refuse a promotion if one occurs.  The CM should already know this, as the member can inform the CM of information such as this through EMAA.  The paperwork can be generated if the promotion message is cut, not before.

 

[Laval]

Good day all,

I am posted to a small base and there are only two positions in my unit and MOC on Base.  I'm the MCpl IC, and the Sgt position has been vacant for almost a year now.  My Chain of command is not planning on posting in another Sgt (ever).  Eventually my CoC will either delete/transfer one of the two positions. 
My question is:  I am in employed in the Sgt's role without the support of a MCpl;  I'm QL 6a qualified with 2years in rank,  Am I entitled to an advanced/while so employed promotion, or would it just be a request to my CoC?

 

[dangerboy]

For regular force personnel I have never hear of anybody being WSE while in Canada only for operational deployments, and then at the end of the deployment they went back to their old rank or were promoted.

 

[GnyHwy]

Your situation is quite common for all trades, doing a job beyond your rank.

What should be likely is that you will be promoted as soon as your CoC can do it.

 

[Occam]

I also recall one of the prerequisites of being promoted WSE is that in order to get it, the list of available members at the required rank has to be exhausted, or something along those lines.  Merely performing the duties of the higher rank isn't sufficient, it's that there can't be anyone available at the required rank so they have to go one rank lower to satisfy the requirement.

 

[honestyrules]

Your situation is quite common for all trades, doing a job beyond your rank.

What should be likely is that you will be promoted as soon as your CoC can do it.

Like Gny says, it's a common situation, but at the same time it's a good occasion for your to show your CoC what you're made of..that should pay off. If you're doing real good you should rank pretty good on the list. but I wouldn't go and "ask" to be accelerated. You should enter your EPZ soon, after two years in the MCpl's rank, so this fall's board might bring something good for you. But all in all, it is almost normal to make members assume responsibilities "one up" in some trades, where rarity/situations makes you "one of the very few". It's your chance to shine :2c:

 

[Shamrock]

I can't think of any situations where I've seen RegF promoted WSE in Canada (not that anecdotal crap is useful anyhow) but I have seen many a leader promoted acting lacking.

Isn't there a circumstance where a reservist under ranked for a position may be promoted WSE domestically? I have no references available, so I put this before the general population as a potential avenue to discuss.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Good day all,

I am posted to a small base and there are only two positions in my unit and MOC on Base.  I'm the MCpl IC, and the Sgt position has been vacant for almost a year now.  My Chain of command is not planning on posting in another Sgt (ever).  Eventually my CoC will either delete/transfer one of the two positions. 
My question is:  I am in employed in the Sgt's role without the support of a MCpl;  I'm QL 6a qualified with 2years in rank,  Am I entitled to an advanced/while so employed promotion, or would it just be a request to my CoC?

My take on the OP's scenario, others may have differing (and more current ) opinions.  While it may be more common these days to have unfilled positions, it does not necessarily mean that other pers are performing the duties of that vacant position.  It may just mean that the workload does not require the higher ranking supervisor.  Though not knowing the trade of the OP (and the vacant Sgt's position), I'm assuming (from the the scenario he presented) that he is in a two person section (well, one man shop now since there is no Sgt).  It would than be safe to assume that both are (or would be) responsible for "hands on" work and supervisory duties would have been the responsibility of the Sgt.  If there is no one to supervise, then should an individual be assessed for duties of a higher rank that is not being done?  Unless there is a dimension to the trade that mandates some of the functions that the OP is doing can only be done by a Sgt, I don't (or probably wouldn't) automatically assume that he is filling the Sgt's position.

 

[honestyrules]

My take on the OP's scenario, others may have differing (and more current ) opinions.  While it may be more common these days to have unfilled positions, it does not necessarily mean that other pers are performing the duties of that vacant position.  It may just mean that the workload does not require the higher ranking supervisor.  Though not knowing the trade of the OP (and the vacant Sgt's position), I'm assuming (from the the scenario he presented) that he is in a two person section (well, one man shop now since there is no Sgt).  It would than be safe to assume that both are (or would be) responsible for "hands on" work and supervisory duties would have been the responsibility of the Sgt.  If there is no one to supervise, then should an individual be assessed for duties of a higher rank that is not being done?  Unless there is a dimension to the trade that mandates some of the functions that the OP is doing can only be done by a Sgt, I don't (or probably wouldn't) automatically assume that he is filling the Sgt's position.

True. But at the same time, if the OP is a "one man gang", and manages to fulfill 100% of his occupation's mandate (OP knows if he is actually doing it or not) for his Garrison/Base/Wing/Det, and if the OP has to answer all the questions, meet all the requirements and manage to get the job done, he should already be seen/considered as a good prospect for promotion by his CoC (I'm speculating that the OP is actually a keener)...only his highers know....
On top of that, only the OP knows how his PERs are like...if he's not getting an "immediate", he shouldn't think about getting pushed up A/L, WSE, accel'd or anything like that ,but rather concentrate on his next achievements and next evaluation period.

 

[my72jeep]

Isn't there a circumstance where a reservist under ranked for a position may be promoted WSE domestically? I have no references available, so I put this before the general population as a potential avenue to discuss.

The While so employed is used a lot in the CIC/COATS world both with the CIC Officers and the Reg/Res NCM's. for the most part its as a drop in rank so as to get a full time job.

 

[PViddy]

The While so employed is used a lot in the CIC/COATS world both with the CIC Officers and the Reg/Res NCM's. for the most part its as a drop in rank so as to get a full time job. 

Yes...currently living the dream  :nod:  :

PV

 

[armyvern]

In any case, the OP is posted into the MCpl posn and not the Sgts posn. For WSE eligibility, one must be officially posted into the higher rank posn.

Harkens back to the days of SCONDVA when the CF routinely left the higher rank posns unfilled, but had lower ranks (who were themselves living in a state of official "freeze on promotions") doing those jobs, but who were themselves posted into the lower ranked posn thus rendering them ineligible for WSE despite the fact they were doing their own/higher jobs. These were the keeners and it was quite obvious the CF was saving money during times of budget cuts on their backs ... I was one of them (as a Cpl was the A/MPO - a WOs posn at the base I was at at the time). As soon as SCONDVA got a hold of shit like that, it was one of their recommendations that this particular unethical practice cease immediately.

Eerily enough, as soon as the promotion freeze was lifted, I flew through the ranks receiving all future promotions at the minimal TIR level.

I hope that the OPs post is not indicative of a slide by the CF back to those days.

 

[aesop081]

I hope that the OPs post is not indicative of a slide by the CF back to those days.

Let's not make any assumptions based solely on what the OP put on here.

Even if he is doing "the job", he is not in it's entirety. Regardless, an empty position a promotion does not make. If the member lower on the merit list than the number of promotions, he will not be promoted simply because theres a vacant position. career managers often have to play "which position am i leaving vacant this year" in order to meet CF and L1 priorities.

I know you know this but many others do not, as evidenced by the promotion bellyaching i routinely hear around the CF.

 

[DAA]

Have a look at CANFORGEN 060/00 (Acting Pay/Rank).  It's very "old" but I still do believe, is in effect.

 

[Laval]

Thank you DAA, 

I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.  As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.

You would think it would be common sense that if your section once required a Sgt and a MCpl,  and now the section is to be downsize to only one position (with the same roles and responsibilities),  Then it would be the Sgt position that remains. 

After reading the previous posts it does make me weary to bring this request to my CoC.  My CoC obviously feels confident that I can to do both jobs.  But without the rank and pay?

Maybe I should just suck it up, and wait for my CoC and CFPAS to tell me that I have the potential to be a Sgt?

I

 

[honestyrules]

Thank you DAA, 

I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.  As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.

You would think it would be common sense that if your section once required a Sgt and a MCpl,  and now the section is to be downsize to only one position (with the same roles and responsibilities),  Then it would be the Sgt position that remains. 

After reading the previous posts it does make me weary to bring this request to my CoC.  My CoC obviously feels confident that I can to do both jobs.  But without the rank and pay?

Maybe I should just suck it up, and wait for my CoC and CFPAS to tell me that I have the potential to be a Sgt?

I

Yes, without the rank and pay for now. Like many others actually. At least you have the opportunity to grow with the added responsibilities and "exposure".
Wait for the boards results this fall (your ranking on EMAA after the boards), and base your decision on that maybe?

 

[armyvern]

Thank you DAA, 

I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.  As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.

You would think it would be common sense that if your section once required a Sgt and a MCpl,  and now the section is to be downsize to only one position (with the same roles and responsibilities),  Then it would be the Sgt position that remains. 

After reading the previous posts it does make me weary to bring this request to my CoC.  My CoC obviously feels confident that I can to do both jobs.  But without the rank and pay?

Maybe I should just suck it up, and wait for my CoC and CFPAS to tell me that I have the potential to be a Sgt?

I

It sucks doesn't it?

I am the A/QM as well for the next year as we will not be having a Capt posted in. As I am doing both jobs (and working horrendous hours to get both jobs done), perhaps I should get my pay and a Captain's pay?? Somehow, I don't see it happening. 

Having been through this before, and having drafted WSE paperwork for others under my employ, I know that one of the pre-reqs is that you (and I) must be posted into that higher ranked position in order to be eligible for WSE. We are not and therefore we are not eligible.

 

[PViddy]

I have a question while were on the topic.  I don't have DWAN access for CANFORGEN's but how does IPC work when you've been promoted into a higher rank WSE ? when i drop back into my substative rank in a few years, does that mean a pay cut ?

cheers,

PV