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Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

Roy Harding said:
Promotions are funny things - they depend on your personal qualities and drive, opportunity (IE - getting loaded on the "right" courses), vacancies being available, and a little bit of luck.

My own case may illustrate my point.  I went from Pte to Sgt in 8 years from '82 to '90.  Not bad for a CSS troop.  I then remained a Sgt for 11 years.  In my 19th year of service (2001) I was promoted WO.  A LONG time between promotions.

I have a friend who joined (same trade) at around the same time.  His career was pretty much the inverse of mine at first.  After 12 years he was "still" a Cpl.  Things then started to move, now at the 24 year point (he's still in) he's a WO, looking forward to MWO.

Edit:  grammar

Bang on Roy. My career path was similar to yours. Pte to Sgt in 8 yrs ('75 to '83). Remained a Sgt for 9 yrs, a WO for 8 and another 5 as MWO. This whole issue is also very trade dependent. That was not lost on me when I was posted from 1 Svc Bn Calgary to Cold Lake in '80. It was very common to see 25 year Cpl's and MCpl's in some of the hard Air trades. Their trades tended to be older while CSS and Cbt Arms tended to be younger. I recall a number of "friendly" arguments in the Mess (as a very young Sgt) as to the reasons this existed .... age factor/ CSS vs hard Air Trades/ complaceny (i.e staying in Cold Lake/ Bagotville) etc etc.. 

Hopefully I've done this quote thing right ... :threat:
 
Scott57 said:
Bang on Roy. My career path was similar to yours. Pte to Sgt in 8 yrs ('75 to '83). Remained a Sgt for 9 yrs, a WO for 8 and another 5 as MWO. This whole issue is also very trade dependent. That was not lost on me when I was posted from 1 Svc Bn Calgary to Cold Lake in '80. It was very common to see 25 year Cpl's and MCpl's in some of the hard Air trades. Their trades tended to be older while CSS and Cbt Arms tended to be younger. I recall a number of "friendly" arguments in the Mess (as a very young Sgt) as to the reasons this existed .... age factor/ CSS vs hard Air Trades/ complaceny (i.e staying in Cold Lake/ Bagotville) etc etc.. 

Hopefully I've done this quote thing right ... :threat:

HA!!  I remember similar arguments in the Edmonton Sgt's Mess!!  (My first posting as a new Sgt was to an Air Sqn - not a good place for a cocky new Sergeant, fresh from the Airborne Regiment!! (And it provided me with a great opportunity to "crash and burn", which I took full advantage of.))  I used to tell them that there were only 2000 of "them" (Air Force), and one of me - they should surrender as they had no chance of winning.  When I returned to Edmonton in '96 (when it went Army), I took great delight in telling the remaining airmen in the mess that they should have listened to me!!

To get back to the topic at hand - you're right - promotions are also very trade dependent.  In the case of the troop who asked, he's Infantry - historically a fairly fast moving trade - so that shouldn't be a negative factor in his case.

 
Roy Harding said:
I find it doubtful that a res MCpl would transfer directly as a reg MCpl - not impossible, but unusual.

Never seen it. At best they would get made up after 1 yr as a Cpl.
 
Armymedic said:
Never seen it. At best they would get made up after 1 yr as a Cpl.
I have to agree with this also, from my limited experience.  Unfortunately the 'Bovine Scatology' factor is always in effect when some 'pose' statements or a similar problem in discussions like this.
 
Armymedic, George Wallace:

Agreed - I would have stated such, but I've been out of the loop for two years now, and I'm aware how fast things can change, so I tend to soft-pedal my perceived knowledge.
 
Patrolman, your post didn't really clear anything up for me... are you saying that regardless of how many courses you have, or how switched on you are, or how good you are... you can not get promoted before a certain time?
[/quote]
Let me try to explain.there are certain requirements that soldiers must meet before promotions can take place. Promotion to Cpl. is a given after 4 years. Anything after that you have to earn it. In the infantry these days you are placed on leadership courses based on meriting within your battalion. Being a good soldier in areas of competence,physical fitness ,placing well on courses are all things that will help you merit better

When I joined things were a bit differen't. I arrived at my unit in May of 97. May 2000 recieved an excellerated promotion to Cpl. October 2000 placed on a pre leadership course with 25 or other Cpl.'s with varying levels of experience. We were competing for six positions on an upcoming JLC/JNCO course. IN the end I was selected to attend the course having performed better than some of those older CPL's.
 
Upon completion of my course I went into a Leadership role. Sounds good right. Not so much. In the mean time these old Cpl's With 15 years in finally got on course and began to be promoted while I looked on. Why you might ask? I only had 4 years in the army and had not recieved any PER's. Without PER's you cannot merit on the promotion board. The older guys had several, so as soon as they recieved their course they were pushed past me on the merit boards. After eight years sevice I was Finally promoted to MCpl.

Don't be dicouraged though the infantry has now started to let Pte.'s with extreme leadership potential attend leadership courses. Work hard stay out of trouble and prove you better than the guy next to you and you will get your chance to be a leader. Just remember it is not the mvies and we are not involved in a war such as WW2 so promotions tend be slower.

So yes promotions take time, but if you are switched on  do well on courses,stay fit prove your potential things will go faster.
 
Thanks for all the great responses, guys, Roy in particular.... you've provided me with a lot of information that I've been curious about but never thought to ask my recruiter.

As an aside, I think this was a textbook hijack, performed masterfully by someone who's never really done it before...  ;D

I'll step aside now and let the officers at it again.
 
Dog said:
...

As an aside, I think this was a textbook hijack, performed masterfully by someone who's never really done it before...  ;D

I'll step aside now and let the officers at it again.

You know what?  You're right - I hadn't even noticed. 

Well done you - see what you can accomplish when you pursue something for the love of it??

And you're right - let's let the officers have the thread back.

Gentlemen:  OTYO.
 
Huh, direct on the topic here... As I am from Quebec and francophone, I guess I'm targeted as a potential infantry officer troublemaker... gosh, it's silly...

Tell me if the author is freak or if it really reflects the reality in the CF. (Don't think it's that bad... man, linguists! ???)

Enjoy!

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/3254086p-3767921c.html said:
No French, no job?
Official bilingualism can bring careers to a dead stop

Tue Jan 10 2006

By Jim Shilliday

OH, "rights and freedoms," what crimes are being committed in your name?

Many serving and ex-military officers, frustrated by their country's bilingualism policies, may be inclined to vote for Conservatives in the coming federal election -- but they must wonder if that would be the same as voting for Liberals.

For some reason, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not apply to the fallout of enforced bilingualism that is ignored by politicians, the media and Canadians generally.

There are points of view in Canada that go mostly unheard. That's because labels are applied by people in government and the media, such as "franco-phobic," a tag applied to a delegate at last year's Conservative Party convention who tried to raise concerns about bilingualism.

That Conservative gathering in Montreal may have turned out the lights of hope for any ambitious members of the Canadian Armed Forces who don't speak French. The Tories endorsed the Official Languages Act, and now there is no political party in the House of Commons that can take the side of military officers (and thousands of civil servants) whose careers are ruined or diminished because they have been unable to master the French language, or don't wish to. Bilingualism is official policy of the Canadian Forces. A lieutenant-colonel I know, a graduate of Royal Rhodes military college, left the service because of the restrictions of bilingualism policy.

A captain who quit the military outlines the frustration of enforced bilingualism in an article written for COPS (Canadian Oppressed Public Servants) at www: languagefairness.org/Contact_Us.php.

COPS is run by public service volunteers and assisted by Language Fairness National, a volunteer group of taxpayers. It claims 130,000 federal public servants support its fight against language policies.

Some unilingual military officers, instead of commanding fighter squadrons, battalions or warships, are back on civvie street, probably selling insurance. What would Canadians prefer, a great leader or a great linguist taking their soldiers, sailors and airmen into battle?

But doesn't having a bilingual military make sense? Not to the degree we are led to believe. Former prime minister Pierre Trudeau, quite reasonably, appointed francophones to high positions in the civil service and boards, agencies and commissions. French Canadians had to be shown that the national government reflected their needs.

This "well-meaning idealism," has gone well beyond that, wrote MP Scott Reid in Lament for a Notion: The Life and Death of Canada's Bilingual Dream. "... the federal government has adopted a system of hiring and promotions that... systematically discriminates against most anglophones... Such tactics freeze out from the public service the 24 million Canadians -- and especially immigrant groups -- who speak only one official language, either English or French, but not both."

Some anglophone officers are said to have left the Canadian military due to lack of facility in the French language. Many Quebec francophones, because of the need to communicate in a largely English-speaking environment in North America, have a step up when it comes to employment and advancement in the Canadian military and civil service. Spokespersons for all federal departments, agencies, the military and RCMP are predominantly francophones -- just monitor the daily news.

In June of 2003, then defence minister John McCallum announced that the armed forces had fallen far short in promoting bilingualism. Only 45 per cent of those promoted to lieutenant-colonel were bilingual. That would have to rise by five per cent a year.

Justice and equality for francophones in Canada was attained decades ago; francophone participation in Canadian affairs now goes beyond fairness on a proportional population basis. To achieve full bilingualism in the Canadian military, the process appears to work best by getting rid of anglophone officers and replacing them with francophones. Expressions against such injustice are not anti-French. Most Canadians simply appreciate fairness -- and sensible policies. Retired air force pilot Lt.-Col. Lawrie Hawn says: "I can think of a lot of fine young warriors who would have been excellent senior leaders... politically correct things we are asked to do are fine, unless when they are done at the expense of what should be the heart of any professional military person -- that is, a warrior spirit and a will to win in the toughest of situations..."

Many Quebecers have led our young men against the enemy. The province enjoys an admirable tradition of service to Canada's armed forces in the two world wars and all other conflicts.

They have been killed, won decorations, achieved great rank. One warrior from Quebec, Georges Vanier, became our governor general. How did they contribute so much, attain such recognition, when the entire military organization (or the country) was not nearly as bilingual as it is today? And how did so many unilingual anglophone soldiers, sailors and airmen accomplish so much during wars abroad?

Bilingualism is a helpful adjunct, and required in some situations. But the biggest proponents of bilingualism in Canada are politicians whose careers and "legacy" depend on preserving a group identity, not promoting individual achievement. Is this a service to Canadian society? Or does it, instead, drain certain talent from the military, cause morale to plummet, and foster a division between different segments of the population?

Some capable, promising army, navy and air force officers have been unable to use their talents to advance their country's military competence because they were not bilingual -- because federal political parties court Quebec voters.


Retired newspaper editor Jim Shilliday flew fighters for NATO as a member of the Canadian air force.
 
Here's some food for thought:

One of my previous PL WOs is fluent in both english and french and said that in 1 Vandoo it helped him quite a bit. While most troops had to compete for spots on courses offered only in their native language, he was able to attend both english and french serials. He had more opportunities to get loaded on course then most other guys, and this helped him to advance his career.
 
Wonderbread said:
He had more opportunities to get loaded on course then most other guys, and this helped him to advance his career.

Hmmmm...getting loaded while on course doesn't seem to have helped me that much  ;D

As for the language thing, I moved in with a girl from Quebec - - beats classroom learnin' all to hell~!
 
Oh yea,...I can guarantee you I learned more going to visit my future wife in Montreal on weekends than I did during the week on my course in Pet.
 
Learning a functional French really isn't that hard, it is very similar to English. It is gramatically perfect French, with all it's exeptions that is a huge challenge, but fortunatly I don't think you need that in the CF.

Being native from Quebec and bilingual myself (it is easier for us, as pointed out, because we live in an English world. With an occasional trip to the US or Ontario and basic English classes I ended up bilingual before I was 18), I beleive the regiments in places other than very francophone regions should not be required to be functional in French. But maybe im not representative of most French Canadian's opinion, I beleive we should all be speaking English anyway (not forget French, but English should be the only official language of Canada, two official languages seem to create a huge bureaucratic weight and alot of injustices created to avoid other injustices)...

Douke
 
While I am an English guy from the heart of English Ontario who thinks all our kids should be brought up to speak both French and English.
Just one more world advantage we can give our children.....
 
Yes Piper, I learned some spanish. It really isn't that hard. As for money? drop $75 next time you are at Chapters and get a phrase book and some cds. Then listen to em all the time... unless that is too difficult. But to me it seems really simple: if you want a promotion, learn french. Just another one of those things you need under your belt, like a QL3 course or whatever. Cheers -Cameron
 
Greatly said Bruce!

The French community is a integral and important part of what is Canada. There's francophones from Newfoundland to Vancouver (and probably even Victoria) and small communities in most big cities. It's really not a matter of pragmatism or functionnality, otherwise we would all speak the same language. The matter is French is a part of Canada and there's cultures attached to and created by this language. Learning french (or english for me) is only the least we can do to learn and have an insight of what's the other's language and culture. This creates unity and the fact that officers (and public servants) are required to master the basics in the country's second language is also a matter of unity. Let's say an anglophone goes to (or has to work with) the R22eR, what's he to do if he doesn't speak french? If a CO has to command some french unit while on deployment? That's also why it is important to learn french.

Side note: go see Maurice Richard, you'll all learn some things about the not always funny french-english relationship in Canada. This Irwin had a freakin leadership and courage.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
While I am an English guy from the heart of English Ontario who thinks all our kids should be brought up to speak both French and English.
Just one more world advantage we can give our children.....

Ditto, Bruce - hell freezes over once again as we agree on something. While the restrictions on advancement in government seem a bit extreme, I wholeheartedly support the education of our populous (especially children) in French. Considering it's one of the most widespoken languages, it's not only an advantage in Canada but around the world. Other languages being taught would be great, too, but there's a limit on the time and money available to the education system.



Snaky said:
I speak french and im in R22eR, i understand the english lang but i dont talk this, i want learning the english fir help me in my carreer  and for operation with other army in the world. the english is the first lang in the army and all french could be learning the english. im not very good for writing the english, sorry but i try to communicate with all guy in this website for practice the english!! :) my english is not very good!!  :) :cdn: :salute:

I (and I would guess just about everyone else here) have no problem understanding you. Your english is better than some anglophones, so don't be too hard on yourself. Making the effort and practicing is essential to learning a new language - keep it up.  :salute:
 
I think the choice to promote bilingual officers everywhere makes sense.  If official bilingualism is the way things are, then it is entirely possible that an officer will be given troops at some point that don't speak his mother tongue.  Since Canadian troops can speak *either* language, officers must be prepared to lead in either language.  I would suggest this is less of an issue for NCM's and general troops.

Speaking out of my nonexistent experience, I would suggest that since NCMs are supposed to be in the trenches, that it makes sense that they may not necessarily speak the other language.  However, officers, who may be trying to coordinate a battle plan between armour, infantry & etc., need to be able to explain what's going on to other officers, then go and explain it to the troops.  The officer caste is supposed to be (ideally) around 5 percent, the brains of the organisation...if the brains can only talk to other brains, or only the right side of the body...then the body, i.e., the infantry, doesn't move very far.

Imagine, in a war....Capt. Jean-Guy, Lieutenant Jean-Baptiste, and OCdt Gaetan Trebuchet get offed in an enemy barrage.  There are three perfectly suitable officers at HQ, but instead of sending them, they let the NCMs handle things without officer supervision....because those suitable officers don't speak french.  That's a waste of resources.  I submit that it is easier to replace recruit Bloggins, Smith and Jones with recruit Simard, Aresenault, and Boucher than to replace officers in this way...and then, only if necessary...because usually the troops outnumber the officers, and there's less of a bottleneck for troop positions.

All hearkens back to the caste system, and the purpose each of these castes has to serve.
 
OK, I had to add my two cents to this as an anglophone from Toronto who is now serving in a francophone regiment.  Being bilingual does not guarantee that you will be promoted faster.  I know quite a few bilingual officers that are going nowhere in the CF.  Officially, bilingualism will give you 2 extra points for NCMs and I believe 3 points for officers, but unofficially it will do the following:
1. As mentioned earlier, you can attend courses in English or French, doubling your chances of getting more qualifications.
2. You have many more positions outside of the regiment that are available, and since extra-regimental postings (ERP) are more and more important for career advancement for both officers and NCMs, you have better chances of moving up.

Cheers.
 
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