Pot-smoking Mountie can't smoke in uniform, RCMP says

[Fishbone Jones]

This is nice and all but the problem we are incurring is that we have given individual Doctors God-like powers to decide what folks "need" to get by.........Doctors can be pathetic brain-dead people too, but management never seems to have the stones to say "No, prove it".

You just can't believe some of the kife notes that some folks have......

I'm just providing information

 

[Lightguns]

This is really a tragedy, 20 years ago three Francis boys joined the Native Policing Program of the RCMP.  1 died in a tragic accident in his yard in Oromocto, one is serving time as a pedophile and now this.  All from the Kingsclear Reserve.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I am a little curious about his status in the RCMP as well.  I am concerned that he felt the need to dress in serge for his CBC interview and smoke a joint for the cameras.  That is certainly asking for disciplinary action and indicates that the member is past his best before date as a dedicated peace officer.  9 to 15 joints day, I hope he is not carrying!

You do know that he said he has 3 joints a day, the 9 to 15 was stating how many his prescription would allow him to have...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You do know that he said he has 3 joints a day, the 9 to 15 was stating how many his prescription would allow him to have...

Well, that's it then. Imagine how stupid we all feel for not buying into "what he said" just like that. :boring:

 

[mariomike]

I know a guy that's been on"light duties" for 15 years now just working in the office. The force needs a better plan for injured members that will never return to work but right now we have them occupying desks and giving advice and writing policy despite having not done police work in years.

I wonder how often this happens...

"For police officers, if no suitable regular member positions are identified, the possibility of a conversion to a civilian member position may be explored."
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/hr-rh/10-04-discharge-renvoi-eng.htm

Also, if accommodated into a suitable civilian job in the RCMP, if they retain their pre-injury rate of pay, subject to all wage increases negotiated.

 

[jpjohnsn]

Now, I'll admit that smoking is an unusual delivery method, and from what I've read the medical community also has a problem with the idea in principal, but other delivery methods have failed to produce results. 

While smoking it might end up being an optimal delivery system for the patient, it also has the potential of medicating those around the patient too - with or without their consent.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Odd that no one has looked for/posted this yet.  I got curious in a discussion with a friend.  Seems pretty straight forward to me from a "regulations" perspective.  I was surprised, but it is what it is. 

From the RCMP Code of Conduct:

51. (1) A member shall not

(a) while on duty, consume, possess or be under the influence of alcohol or a drug or any other behaviour altering substance, except as required or permitted in the performance of a specific duty or as authorized for personal use pursuant to a medical prescription; or

(b) report for duty while under the influence of alcohol or a drug or any other behaviour altering substance, except as authorized for personal use pursuant to a medical prescription.

52. A member shall not

(a) use any controlled or restricted drug set out respectively in Schedules G and H to the Food and Drugs Act, or any narcotic set out in the schedule to the Narcotic Control Act, except as authorized for personal use pursuant to a medical prescription; or

(b) possess any controlled or restricted drug set out respectively in Schedules G and H to the Food and Drugs Act, or a narcotic set out in the schedule to the Narcotic Control Act, except as required or permitted in the performance of the member’s duties oras authorized for personal use pursuant to a medical prescription.
------------------------------------------------

Does he qualify for a medical prescription?  Hell I don't know, that's for the doctors to argue over.  He has one though, and the regulations permit it.

So...what argument will they use?  Sect 39?

39. (1) A member shall not engage in any disgraceful or disorderly act or conduct that could bring discredit on the Force.

(2) Without restricting the generality of the foregoing, an act or a conduct of a member is a disgraceful act or conduct where the act or conduct

(a) is prejudicial to the impartial performance of the member’s duties; or

(b) results in a finding that the member is guilty of an indictable offence or an offence punishable on summary conviction under an Act of Parliament or of the legislature of a province.

Doesn't seem to apply.

Maybe now all of you who were making comments off the cuff can at least cut the guy some slack, WRT him smoking a medicinal joint in his Scarlets.  THEIR REGULATIONS PERMIT IT.

:2c:

 

[The_Falcon]

Maybe now all of you who were making comments off the cuff can at least cut the guy some slack, WRT him smoking a medicinal joint in his Scarlets.  THEIR REGULATIONS PERMIT IT.

:2c:

Really?  I don't think so.  The RCMP like the CAF (and most other police service) have a myriad of internal policies, regulations, RO's, SO's.  If the RCMP are saying it is not permitted, I am going to go out on a limb, that one of those other items is where it comes from.

 

[Jed]

[....  Doesn't seem to apply.

Maybe now all of you who were making comments off the cuff can at least cut the guy some slack, WRT him smoking a medicinal joint in his Scarlets. THEIR REGULATIONS PERMIT IT.

:2c:
[/quote]

I guess this is what in days of yore people would call a barracks room lawyer.

Hey I feel for the guy as much as anyone, but dickhead behavior is still dickhead behavior. For the good of the service and fellow countrymen and women it can not be allowed.
I'm upset that the CBC puts their warped spin on the story and then shows the guy sobbing when they collect the uniforms. A CBC dickhead move.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Maybe now all of you who were making comments off the cuff can at least cut the guy some slack, WRT him smoking a medicinal joint in his Scarlets.  THEIR REGULATIONS PERMIT IT.

For frigs sake..........can you actually be in the military?
....or are you just special enough to get to choose what dress you wear and what you decide to do in that dress?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Really?  I don't think so.  The RCMP like the CAF (and most other police service) have a myriad of internal policies, regulations, RO's, SO's.  If the RCMP are saying it is not permitted, I am going to go out on a limb, that one of those other items is where it comes from.

A lower level order that contravenes the RCMP Act?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess this is what in days of yore people would call a barracks room lawyer.

Barracks room lawyer...sure.  If you ignore that what I posted is direct from the RCMP reg.

I guess if I quoted the QR & O on something that was written in black and white, or a DAOD I'd be out to lunch too. 

What I think, or my opinion doesn't matter.  Hey, the link is there, go read the RCMP reg yourself.  I didn't make it up or stick shit in to suit a purpose.

 

[Jed]

To EITS: You missed my point. Any RCMP or Military person can see that this situation is just wrong and needs to be corrected immediately. It does not matter what is written in the policy and regulations.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

For frigs sake..........can you actually be in the military?
....or are you just special enough to get to choose what dress you wear and what you decide to do in that dress?

Sure, I am 'actually in the military'.  What the fuck does THAT have to do with anything?  The guy we're talking about is not in the CAF.  I guess that is why this thread is in the RCMP thread.

Here's the link again, go ahead and take a look.  RCMP Regulations, 1988.  SOR 88-361.  Current as of 13 Nov 2013. 

It is under Part III Discipline - Code of Conduct, Para's 51 and 52.

I didn't write it.  I just pointed out what is says.  :

 

[mrjasonc]

Whoa ladies and gents....... As I read through this thread and comments I must say that EITS never really stated "his/her" opinion. To which they are right. Yours, mine or the dude next door (scratching his stuff) opinion doesn't matter either. The policies are put in place and are what they go by.

Therefore. EITS has found the accurate info as to the case. What other internal policies and regulations that may contradict the RCMP COC are yet to be determined.

That being said. Shouldn't the "personal" attacking be for a "different" thread?

 

[mariomike]

Any RCMP or Military person can see that this situation is just wrong and needs to be corrected immediately.

I wonder if even McDonald's would let their employees smoke reefers in uniform?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It does not matter what is written in the policy and regulations.

Taking a quick look at your profile, respectfully, I wonder how you feel about this link.

I don't intend this as a slight.  I intend it to prove a point and that point is that we in the CAF are taught to follow orders and reg's.  And if we do NOT, there could be consequences.  And that we follow those orders, regulations, etc even if we do not agree with them. 

Furthermore, we are trained that we are to afford impartiality and fairness to those subordinate to us in the performance of our duties, on behalf of Canada.  Example, if the CO was to award 1 day short leave to 'any unit members who get exempt on their EXPRES test', and I don't agree with it, can/should I then go against this and deny the folks who work for me a Short day if I don't agree with it?

We in the CAF have a continuing problem of people/people in positions of authority making decisions based on their opinion/view that is contrary to CAF policy/orders/regs.  If in doubt, go check out the CMJ Court Martials records for 2013....2012.  Or the Grievance Board decisions over the years, where the CDS as Final Authority has overturned decisions that were deemed contrary to CAF policy/regs/etc made by IAs from COs on up to the ECSs.

If we have that issue in the CAF (and we do...), it is reasonable to assume other organizations have it too including the RCMP, because people aren't always able to be removed and unbiased in their decisions.  Think back to when 'squareback' haircuts were allowed after years of taper-only and how many RSMs and Sgt-Maj's didn't agree with it.  Or male CAF mbr's wearing earrings when not in uniform.  Hell back years ago women couldn't vote.  People resist change. 

Para 51 states "on duty" and it is reasonable to suggest that RCMP members who are on duty are also likely going to be "in uniform".

I am not saying I agree, as a member of society, with the current RCMP policy, but I 100% state that current RCMP reg's apply.

I'm upset that the CBC puts their warped spin on the story and then shows the guy sobbing when they collect the uniforms. A CBC dickhead move.

I haven't actually read the story or seen the new footage;  I was talking to a friend tonight and we debated it.  I said "there is no way a Mountie can be allowed to smoke weed".  Wanting to prove my friend wrong, I went looking for their reg's and was surprised to find what I found.  Maybe having not seen the CBC stuff made it easy to be a little more objective.

 

[Container]

There are huge debates in the rcmp currently as to whether or not, water cooler debates I should add, anything was actually breached.

Firstly. You are not allowed to speak with the media as a rep of the force without authorization.

You can't wear your serge on TV. To advocate without the permission of the commanding officer of the div.

These are "Standing Orders" Not RCMP act. He didn't breach anything by using "medication" he breached uniform, and media strategy, and direction from his superiors. Which is an offence.

He was provided an order not to push the subject until the organization decided how to deal with this uncharted territory. He told the "eff that it's my right". Again nit allowed.

EITS- you can't make the association "on duty" with wearing a uniform. We have Russian Novel sized uniform manual. There are variations of every uniform type and civi dress that maybe required of duties.

Section 37 requires we avoid any potential or perceived conflict of interest. Such as marijuana advocacy? I m not sure. And that's the RCMP act not regulations.


Also from the Regulations:

40. A member shall obey every lawful order, oral or written, of any member who is superior in rank or who has authority over that member.
SOR/94-219, s. 16.
41. A member shall not publicly criticize, ridicule, petition or complain about the administration, operation, objectives or policies of the Force, unless authorized by law.

And the standing orders contain all types of direction on uniforms, media contact etc. all of which was ignored.

But EITS is correct in the regard that he didn't breach any drug use policy. In fact he very well could have been at Nov 11 services in serge blazing one in the smoke pit and not contravened policy. But he was told that the issue required examination- it's his disregard of CoC where the offence starts.

 

[brihard]

Taking a quick look at your profile, respectfully, I wonder how you feel about this link.

I don't intend this as a slight.  I intend it to prove a point and that point is that we in the CAF are taught to follow orders and reg's.  And if we do NOT, there could be consequences.  And that we follow those orders, regulations, etc even if we do not agree with them. 

Furthermore, we are trained that we are to afford impartiality and fairness to those subordinate to us in the performance of our duties, on behalf of Canada.  Example, if the CO was to award 1 day short leave to 'any unit members who get exempt on their EXPRES test', and I don't agree with it, can/should I then go against this and deny the folks who work for me a Short day if I don't agree with it?

We in the CAF have a continuing problem of people/people in positions of authority making decisions based on their opinion/view that is contrary to CAF policy/orders/regs.  If in doubt, go check out the CMJ Court Martials records for 2013....2012.  Or the Grievance Board decisions over the years, where the CDS as Final Authority has overturned decisions that were deemed contrary to CAF policy/regs/etc made by IAs from COs on up to the ECSs.

If we have that issue in the CAF (and we do...), it is reasonable to assume other organizations have it too including the RCMP, because people aren't always able to be removed and unbiased in their decisions.  Think back to when 'squareback' haircuts were allowed after years of taper-only and how many RSMs and Sgt-Maj's didn't agree with it.  Or male CAF mbr's wearing earrings when not in uniform.  Hell back years ago women couldn't vote.  People resist change. 

Para 51 states "on duty" and it is reasonable to suggest that RCMP members who are on duty are also likely going to be "in uniform".

I am not saying I agree, as a member of society, with the current RCMP policy, but I 100% state that current RCMP reg's apply.

I haven't actually read the story or seen the new footage;  I was talking to a friend tonight and we debated it.  I said "there is no way a Mountie can be allowed to smoke weed".  Wanting to prove my friend wrong, I went looking for their reg's and was surprised to find what I found.  Maybe having not seen the CBC stuff made it easy to be a little more objective.

"On duty" does not necessarily mean "in uniform". There are many lawful duties within the RCMP that are not uniformed. There are plenty of plainclothes personnel in my detachment. There are people who do not carry a firearm or wear a uniform, yet are regular members on duty.

A person who is on medical leave, of course, has no cause to be in uniform. A uniform is to be worn for specific duty related affairs; not because one simply needs to put on pants in the morning and the ones with yellow stripes are nearest at hand. A regular member of the RCMP can be placed lawfully on duty without that contradicting equally lawful orders not to wear uniform. Mind altering drugs quite simply are not compatible with many of our duties, and so consequently a member with a perfectly legitimate prescription fo rsame may be employed in a non-uniformed, unarmed capacity. This is lawful and correct. When a person on medical leave chooses to don a uniform and smoke pot for a CBC interview, they are very clearly using their uniform to political ends. This is wrong. As much sympathy as I have for the man's issues (likely I am more understanding of PTSD, as a CF veteran, than most RCMP officers), it does NOT abrogate his responsibility for his poor decisions.

Suffice it to say, you are well outside your arcs on this one.

 

[Lightguns]

The arguement is now moot. On Friday he turned in his serge in the company of native elders, an eagle feather and forty reporters who just happened to be there. Once the feather comes out all rational debate ends and this becomes a race thing regardless of how regs work. 

Prediction:  TJ Burke, native lawyer, ex provincial cabinet minister, ex US special forces will take this pro bona all the way to the Supreme Court with years of goodwill wiped out.  Finally, the RCMP native recruiting effort will left in tatters.