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Politics in 2017

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Bird_Gunner45 said:
The liberals have borrowed a ton (not unlike harper who allowed it to grow over $150 billion) without a doubt, which combined with poor CPC economic policies has placed Canada into a potential future debt issue.

Whoa now. Harper ran a large deficit in a recession for 6 years http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/canada-deficit/index.html (also dropped in 2015 mid 1980s level as % of GDP if you buy Liberal logic). Don't even try to compare that to the projected 35 year deficit from a party who has no idea how to reign it in other than hoping the economy outgrows their spending. If they continue the current trend, we won't return to surplus until 2050-1 (Harper went from $55B to razor thin surplus in 6 years) and also double the debt levels to $1.55T CAD. You probably didn't see it in the news, Finance Department hid the numbers 2 days before the Christmas break (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/decades-deficits-morneau-1.3923060).
 
ballz said:
The point is, when a government borrows to inject money into the economy, you can't just say "well the numbers improved, case closed everyone." The government did exactly that. There should be no surprise that the GDP increased, after all, it simply measures spending.

Economic growth of 4.6% did not occur. The GDP increased by 4.6% The GDP measures spending, it measures consumption, it is not a measurement of economic growth, simply an indicator. It measures *consumption* and that is a very different thing. There is no specific measurement of economic growth and this obsession with the GDP serves us more harm than good.

GDP is often used as a key figure but it is not the only one nor is it a black and white measurement of "GDP increased, therefore there was economic growth" or vice versa. It just means more consumption occurred. More consumption doesn't necessarily mean anything if you have to input borrowed money into the equation to make it happen. As Peter Schiff responded to the question about increasing the GDP, "yes, but at what cost?"

If the government borrowed 3.5 trillion dollars and gave $100,000 to every Canadian, consumption would sky rocket and therefore the GDP would sky rocket. That doesn't mean the economy is more productive or more efficient, it does not mean it is more sustainable. In isolation, the GDP just means people spent more money. You need to look at other variables as to "why" to figure out if it's a good thing.

If all other variables remained unchanged, but half the labour force stopped working and the GDP fell by 10%, it does not mean there was economic contraction.... it means the economy almost doubled it's efficiency. People who focus only on consumption (GDP) would argue that the economy is collapsing... I'd be doing back flips with excitement of how much more efficient our economy became.


Respect begets respect, and the reverse is often also true.

Indeed, the 4.6% is GDP growth. However, your explanation of GDP requires some refinement. GDP can be calculated in 3 ways, being the production approach (sum of gross product of all enterprises), income approach (GDP= Compensation of Employees+Gross Operating Surplus+Gross Mixed income+(taxes-subsidies on imports and production), and expenditure approach (GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + (Exports − Imports). The IMF definition states that, "GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services - that is, those that are bought by the final user - produced in a country in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year). As exports account for about 31% of our GDP and imports 33%($389,071,103,128 in 2016) the effects of export purchases has to be put into the final calculations as well.

In your example, yes, if we gave everyone $100,000 GDP would go up, assuming that they all buy only Canadian made goods and services. If they go out and buy, say, a Lamborghini than the GDP of Italy would go up as the final product was produced there (assuming they're all made in Italy... I didn't actually research that last part). There is more than just Canadian consumption involved, though I agree that the GDP is an imperfect measure of economic success. Your assertion that GDP only measures spending is therefore, incorrect.

Also, I would also argue that your assertion that if half the labour force stopped working but GDP only fell by 10% it wouldn't mean anything negative was occurring. Aside from the obvious effect on unemployment numbers and therein government spending, if we use the income approach for this example, than the factors that would need to change to create the 10% drop would be compensation of Employees, Gross Operating Surplus, Gross Mixed income, or the taxes-subsidies on imports and production. We can assume that the halving of the work force would reduce the compensation of employees, meaning that you would have more wealth held by fewer people with more people unemployed or underemployed.

In the Harper era, GDP grew about 1-1.5% per annum, or from $1.46 trillion in 2007 to $1.55 trillion in 2016. At the same time debt (total debt - total assets, not straight debt) grew from $516 Billion in 2007 to $727 billion in 2015, a rise of $211 billion, or an average of $21 billion/year. So, the GDP grew about $80 billion during that time, or at a rate of 38 cents for every dollar of debt. In 2008, when the CPC took on $58 billion in debt the GDP rose 1% only, a terrible Return on Investment if just taken in the context of consumption.

Since Trudeau came in, the debt has rise to $759 billion this year, a rise of $64 billion, of which $32 billion was accumulated this year. The GDP grew from $1.53 trillion to the anticipated $1.6 billion (last year x 1.046)

If the factor of GDP were only government spending that led to consumption than each dollar of debt should be equal regardless of whether it was CPC or Liberal. So, why does the $70 billion increase for 2017 equate to a $2.19 increase to GDP for every dollar of tax debt incurred? The reason is that GDP is not solely a consumption factor and that many factors, including overall world economic health, which was as true in the days of the Social Credit party of Alberta in the depression as it is today.

There are a myriad of factors as to why the economy is improved this year of which the LPC has control over as many as the CPC had (very few). However, Altairs comment is factual and for more than the rationale you presented.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/13-607-x/2016001/174-eng.htm

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/trade/data

https://www.bnn.ca/imf-raises-2017-canada-growth-forecast-1.880306

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf
 
PuckChaser said:
Whoa now. Harper ran a large deficit in a recession for 6 years http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/canada-deficit/index.html (also dropped in 2015 mid 1980s level as % of GDP if you buy Liberal logic). Don't even try to compare that to the projected 35 year deficit from a party who has no idea how to reign it in other than hoping the economy outgrows their spending. If they continue the current trend, we won't return to surplus until 2050-1 (Harper went from $55B to razor thin surplus in 6 years) and also double the debt levels to $1.55T CAD. You probably didn't see it in the news, Finance Department hid the numbers 2 days before the Christmas break (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/decades-deficits-morneau-1.3923060).

Why not compare them? Is LPC debt somehow different than CPC debt and have different debt serving fees? Harper grew the debt by about $211 billion in 9 years, which is not insignificant in terms of real debt minus real assets as per my last post. Trudeau is on pace to blast those numbers out of the water, you are correct. However, because person A does one thing doesn't mean than person B gets a free pass. Harper might even be worse as the CPC ran on financial prudence and failed while at least Trudeau and the LPC stated openly they would go into debt, though the amounts were higher than advertised. Even with the $1.4 billion surplus they purportedly would have had for FY 15/16, they would have accrued about $210 billion. This is hardly financial stewardship or prudence in the way it is presented. As for the "but the Liberals and NDP made them!" argument, I say that's an excuse. They didn't have to do anything- in 2008 they could have stuck to their guns as they had planned and faced the music with an election in which they could make their case and when they had a majority they could have done so too.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf  (page 92)
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Indeed, the 4.6% is GDP growth. However, your explanation of GDP requires some refinement. GDP can be calculated in 3 ways, being the production approach (sum of gross product of all enterprises), income approach (GDP= Compensation of Employees+Gross Operating Surplus+Gross Mixed income+(taxes-subsidies on imports and production), and expenditure approach (GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + (Exports − Imports). The IMF definition states that, "GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services - that is, those that are bought by the final user - produced in a country in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year). As exports account for about 31% of our GDP and imports 33%($389,071,103,128 in 2016) the effects of export purchases has to be put into the final calculations as well.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote, or maybe understand what you are copying and pasting... you just wrote me an essay to explain to me that the GDP is measurement of spending / consumption.... which is exactly what I asserted... so I'm not exactly sure why you wrote that. Let us not forget that I only asserted that the GDP measures spending / consumption because you asserted that it measured economic growth...

1. GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services - that is, those that are bought by the final user -
In other words, the sum of spending... the sum of what people spent money on (bought / purchased / spent money on)

2. produced in a country
In other words, adjusted for net exports

3. in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year)
Self-explanatory, I hope so anyway...

Bird_Gunner45 said:
In your example, yes, if we gave everyone $100,000 GDP would go up, assuming that they all buy only Canadian made goods and services. If they go out and buy, say, a Lamborghini than the GDP of Italy would go up as the final product was produced there (assuming they're all made in Italy... I didn't actually research that last part). There is more than just Canadian consumption involved, though I agree that the GDP is an imperfect measure of economic success. Your assertion that GDP only measures spending is therefore, incorrect.

Holy crap, what are you just trying to argue here? Or you can't see the forest because of the trees?

The point wasn't that the GDP would go up because the government borrowed 3.5 trillion and "spent it," the point was that the Canadians would receive a free $100,000 and spend it, causing the GDP would to go up, and we can't just automatically rejoice simply because the GDP went up. I guess I didn't realize I had to spell out every step of a relatively simple hypothetical example of the GDP increasing not necessarily equating to good governance.

Bird_Gunner45 said:
Also, I would also argue that your assertion that if half the labour force stopped working but GDP only fell by 10% it wouldn't mean anything negative was occurring. Aside from the obvious effect on unemployment numbers and therein government spending, if we use the income approach for this example, than the factors that would need to change to create the 10% drop would be compensation of Employees, Gross Operating Surplus, Gross Mixed income, or the taxes-subsidies on imports and production. We can assume that the halving of the work force would reduce the compensation of employees, meaning that you would have more wealth held by fewer people with more people unemployed or underemployed.

I guess you missed that part where I said, "If all other variables remained unchanged" before you wrote an entire paragraph about a whole bunch of other variables changing.... Again, a very simple, hypothetical example that was designed to demonstrate the very simple point that GDP growth does not measure economic growth, but is just one of many indicators.... which you seem to have agreed with so why are you arguing?

Bird_Gunner45 said:
In the Harper era, GDP grew about 1-1.5% per annum, or from $1.46 trillion in 2007 to $1.55 trillion in 2016. At the same time debt (total debt - total assets, not straight debt) grew from $516 Billion in 2007 to $727 billion in 2015, a rise of $211 billion, or an average of $21 billion/year. So, the GDP grew about $80 billion during that time, or at a rate of 38 cents for every dollar of debt. In 2008, when the CPC took on $58 billion in debt the GDP rose 1% only, a terrible Return on Investment if just taken in the context of consumption.

Since Trudeau came in, the debt has rise to $759 billion this year, a rise of $64 billion, of which $32 billion was accumulated this year. The GDP grew from $1.53 trillion to the anticipated $1.6 billion (last year x 1.046)

If the factor of GDP were only government spending that led to consumption than each dollar of debt should be equal regardless of whether it was CPC or Liberal. So, why does the $70 billion increase for 2017 equate to a $2.19 increase to GDP for every dollar of tax debt incurred?

Where did I say "GDP is only government spending that leads to consumption" ?

Bird_Gunner45 said:
The reason is that GDP is not solely a consumption factor and that many factors, including overall world economic health, which was as true in the days of the Social Credit party of Alberta in the depression as it is today.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here... but the GDP measures consumption... I don't know how to explain that to you when you're the one that posted the IMF definition in which it says exactly that.... Yes, there are all kinds of factors that affect the GDP outside of government spending.... but what are they affecting that is causing the GDP to go up or down? They are affecting the end-user who is consuming (spending money on) goods and/or services. That is what the GDP measures, how much money gets spent on goods and/or services. That is consumption, that's why they call the people spending the money "consumers!"

Bird_Gunner45 said:
However, Altairs comment is factual and for more than the rationale you presented.

Sorry, but what comment is "factual" or "rational" exactly? He didn't actually provide anything to assess except a completely arrogant remark which I assessed accordingly.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Why not compare them? Is LPC debt somehow different than CPC debt and have different debt serving fees? Harper grew the debt by about $211 billion in 9 years, which is not insignificant in terms of real debt minus real assets as per my last post. Trudeau is on pace to blast those numbers out of the water, you are correct. However, because person A does one thing doesn't mean than person B gets a free pass. Harper might even be worse as the CPC ran on financial prudence and failed while at least Trudeau and the LPC stated openly they would go into debt, though the amounts were higher than advertised. Even with the $1.4 billion surplus they purportedly would have had for FY 15/16, they would have accrued about $210 billion. This is hardly financial stewardship or prudence in the way it is presented. As for the "but the Liberals and NDP made them!" argument, I say that's an excuse. They didn't have to do anything- in 2008 they could have stuck to their guns as they had planned and faced the music with an election in which they could make their case and when they had a majority they could have done so too.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf  (page 92)

Now you are just being obtuse. The unneeded massive debt by the Liberals does not compare with the PC debt.
 
Altair said:
Other economic indicators show the economy is doing pretty well.

Unemployment numbers, workplace participation, consumer confidence.

But if you want to go one this whole GDP doesn't tell the whole story in order to undermine the economic performance of the LPC be my guest. As I said, the economy speaks for itself.

You're not getting it. I'm not saying the economy hasn't grown, I'm questioning *at what costs?*

It's easy to make an economy grow if you just borrow the money to do it. Why don't we just borrow enough money to employ the remaining unemployed people?

Seriously, the unemployment rate is 5.9%, the labour force is about 19,440,500 people according to Stats Canada... why don't we just borrow more money and hire 1,360,600 unemployed people? The unemployment rate would be 0%, the GDP would most definitely grow as they now have more money and begin consuming, labour force participation would increase since employers would offer higher wages to try and meet the growing demand, consumer confidence would sky rocket...

So, come down from the clouds and tell me, why don't we just borrow the money required and hire an extra 1,360,600 federal employees?
 
[quote author=ballz]
Sorry, but what comment is "factual" or "rational" exactly? He didn't actually provide anything to assess except a completely arrogant remark which I assessed accordingly.
[/quote]What?  The economy does speak for itself.

GDP growth,  employment numbers,  consumer confidence,  debt to GDP ratio,  standards of living,  consumer debt,  and most important for a politician,  how Canadians think the economy is doing and how the party in power is managing it, these all speak for themselves.

I don't need to make a long winded post and counter arguments to complaints about taxes and deficits.

Everyone knows how the economy is doing. Case in point,  I simply said,  and I quote " no need. 

the economy speaks for itself"

Now that could have been taken as a negative statement about the state of the economy or a statement in support of riflemans and jolly jacktars comments,  but you knew that I was taking about the economy in a positive way.
 
Altair said:
I don't need to make a long winded post and counter arguments to complaints about taxes and deficits.

Don't worry, I didn't have such high expectations of you to actually think you might provide anything of value.
 
ballz said:
You're not getting it. I'm not saying the economy hasn't grown, I'm questioning *at what costs?*

It's easy to make an economy grow if you just borrow the money to do it. Why don't we just borrow enough money to employ the remaining unemployed people?

Seriously, the unemployment rate is 5.9%, the labour force is about 19,440,500 people according to Stats Canada... why don't we just borrow more money and hire 1,360,600 unemployed people? The unemployment rate would be 0%, the GDP would most definitely grow as they now have more money and begin consuming, labour force participation would increase since employers would offer higher wages to try and meet the growing demand, consumer confidence would sky rocket...

So, come down from the clouds and tell me, why don't we just borrow the money required and hire an extra 1,360,600 federal employees?
because that would be a very unwise and unaffordable investment.

Very unlike our current fiscal situation that you and others keep lamenting about.

Fact of the matted is our current deficit spending is around 1.5 percent of GDP.  That's pushing the federal debt to GDP ratio to around 33 percent.

Compared to the 90 and the deficits in the 8 percent and federal debt to GDP ratios pushing 65 percent our current situation is positively rosy.

So is 4.5 percent annual GDP growth worth 1.5 percent percent of GDP in federal deficit spending?

Maybe,  maybe not.  But its certainly not the end of the world and Canadians are only really going to care about the former.

 
ballz said:
Don't worry, I didn't have such high expectations of you to actually think you might provide anything of value.
Happy holidays to you as well.

:subbies:
 
Jed said:
Now you are just being obtuse. The unneeded massive debt by the Liberals does not compare with the PC debt.

Sure it does... debt all goes into the same lump and is "mostly" bad regardless of the party who created it.
 
Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau's year-long descent from celebrity selfie-prince to typical politician- 29 Dec 17
2017 was not kind to the PM nor his government. And that last press conference? In Star Wars Yoda-tongue: Ill, it will bode for him

What’s true about first impressions — that you never get a second chance to make them — is logically symmetrical with the truth about last ones. No do-overs for them either, by definition. The last impression many Canadians have of Justin Trudeau in this year of Our Lord, 2017, was of him, shock-faced, rattled and babbling incoherently for a TV eternity of a minute and a half.

For all the sense he made, he could have been speaking Njerep ( I have a Masters in Google search) a language that survives only on the tongues of four people in the entire world, the youngest of whom is already 60.

It’s not because the question was tough, nor could it possibly have been unforeseen. He had been found guilty by the ethics commissioner of, not one, but four provisions of the conflict of interest law.

And, naturally, he was asked, how could a prime minister not have known that hopping on private helicopters on a “vacation” to the Aga Khan’s private island, with buddies and Liberal party personnel in tow, was not — to use a word much in favour at Wilfrid Laurier U — problematic?

This was not quantum mechanics. It was a hot issue for the PMO for all of 2017. Yet there he was in the Commons foyer, having been asked the inevitable question, looking gobsmacked and wounded, stammering like an old outboard motor on the last pint of gas, and stacking up enough non sequiturs and platitudes to fill a Costco warehouse. How bad was he? For that 90 seconds, he made George Bush look like the oratorical son of Martin Luther King Jr. and Margaret Thatcher.

That was the last impression for public view Mr. Trudeau left for the year now gliding into its final hours. In the Star Wars Yoda-tongue: Ill, it will bode for him. Not smart, it will seem.

The year 2017 was not kind to the PM nor his government. It began with his attempt to hide the Aga Khan vacation and ended with a demonstration of why he tried to hide it. The course of the year marked his descent from a celebrity selfie-prince to an all too typical politician, equipped with a genetic sense of entitlement and personal exceptionalism. The press, here and abroad, were no longer half-worshippers. His initiatives were seen by all critics, and some friends, too, as less policies than postures.

Next year's slogan will be more modest: Can I take a rain cheque on that?
 
On NAFTA, for example, the eerie attempt to inject his “feminist” proclivities and adoration of the green gods into trade negotiations did nothing for trade, greenism or feminism. He bungled mightily on trade with the Asian countries, too — not showing up, embarrassing Japan and angering the members of the TPP. The international press was starting to get a touch dismissive. Rightly so. After all, the “The world needs more Canada” sloganism, not showing up at all and ticking off a half-dozen world leaders was a curious choice. Next year’s slogan — “Can I take a rain cheque on that” — will be more modest.

His Number 2, Finance Minister Bill Morneau, made a perfect and protracted hash on the Trudeau tax policy — the one that was supposed to win the hearts of Mr. T’s beloved middle class. That ticked off almost everyone in the middle class or aspiring to it, from dentists to sales clerks. The finance minister’s campaign to sell the policy was a disaster, the climactic moment of which came with having the minister himself being, like his boss, under investigation for conflict of interest from the ethics commissioner.

A government that spent a fortune on deliverology (which I personally think of as the Scientology of spin doctors) proved itself incapable of getting cheques out to its employees. The Canada 150 celebrations were, in the main, a dull bomb. There was more fervour and kick in the Chase the Ace phenom in the small town of Goulds outside St. John’s.

The most sensitive cabinet position, the minister for disabled persons, was filled by the most insensitive person in the cabinet, Kent Hehr — a politician in the Don Rickles mode.

The MMIW inquiry is on yet another reset. The Energy East pipeline was, naturally, cancelled — another sacrifice to Mr. Trudeau’s woeful attachment to the ignis fatuus of global warming. 

Meantime, south of us, the Trump kingdom is both more successful in reducing the dreaded carbon dioxide emissions and simultaneously leading a revival in the U.S. energy industry and putting a shredder to the EPA’s cat’s cradle of over-reaching regulations. And Trump has just passed a monumental change in the U.S. tax code, which will inevitably — just as his energy policies — place Canada at a massive industrial and economic disadvantage.

And so Mr. Trudeau leaves this year with a bundle of negotiations unsettled, wounded ministers, pledges undelivered, in violation of the law governing conflict of interest, at odds with the UN economy, and no single major policy achievement. He caps that with that parting press conference horror, signalling a prime minister struggling, anxious and incoherent — an image which, if it takes, will be fatal for an administration that has made the prime minister’s image its only ace. Much like the Goulds, only in reverse.

A bad year, it was.

177 Comments
 
Rifleman62 said:
Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau's year-long descent from celebrity selfie-prince to typical politician
He's still  not ready.

Unfortunately, it's not going to matter.  The Conservatives and the NDP seem to be actively trying to throw the next election away.  Between choosing leaders that no one has heard of, who seem unable to connect to voters, scratching around for policy statements that appeal almost exclusively to the more extreme elements of their political spectra.... it's like they don't want to seriously contest the next election.

Love him or hate him, as things stand, Team Trudeau will likely be given another mandate to bumble from one photo op to another, spending like a drunken sailor on shore leave majority Liberal government.

It's a self-inflicted wound.
 
Our countries leader.
Expectation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eak_ogYMprk

Reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-5O4UPM0U

That's never going to get old.





[quote author=Journeyman]
Unfortunately, it's not going to matter.  The Conservatives and the NDP seem to be actively trying to throw the next election away. 
[/quote]

I have a sneaking suspicion Mr Scheer will have a comfortable position with the Liberals somewhere after he's done doing his conservative stint.
 
Jarnhamar said:
Our countries leader.
Expectation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eak_ogYMprk

Reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-5O4UPM0U

That's never going to get old.

:rofl:  no, it won't.  What a maroon...
 
jollyjacktar said:
:rofl:  no, it won't.  What a maroon...

That's not a nice thing to say about Rex Murphy... sure,  he's old and out of touch and makes lots of unsubstantiated claims, but....
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
That's not a nice thing to say about Rex Murphy... sure,  he's old and out of touch and makes lots of unsubstantiated claims, but....

Yeah- Rex Murphy. That crazy, uneducated bumpkin of a Rhodes Scholar...
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Yeah- Rex Murphy. That crazy, uneducated bumpkin of a Rhodes Scholar...

Quite right. An educated out of touch old guy.

As many note, education doesn't always equal intelligence, though I don't think rex is stupid. Just out of touch in general. More like the grumpy old guy that yells at kids on his lawn.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Just out of touch in general. More like the grumpy old guy that yells at kids on his lawn.

He's as out of touch as a trust-fund rich kid clamoring on about championing the middle class while vacationing on private islands with billionaire friends.
 
PuckChaser said:
He's as out of touch as a trust-fund rich kid clamoring on about championing the middle class while vacationing on private islands with billionaire friends.

Not incorrect. Theres something to be said for knowing the basics of confkic of interst laws too.

I never mentioned Trudeau though, unless you mean the other trust fund turned champion of the middle class, Donald J. Trump who spends a ton of time golfing and not signing legislation.
 
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