Politics in 2017

[Jed]

The relationship between you and your bride is entirely up to yourselves and what you choose to negotiate between you.    If she doesn't like the terms of the agreement she is under no obligation to marry you.  Equally she should have no expectation of entitlements except as the law permits - and the law is changeable.

Now, in my case, my wife has negotiated favourable terms:  What's mine is ours and what's hers is hers.  And the house is run on her terms.

Now that is an agreement that I have also come to accept.  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the "NDP isn't hard-enough left for some" file ...

Canada’s pseudo left groups are seeking to provide the pro-big business, pro-war New Democratic Party (NDP) with some desperately needed “left” cover.

With working-class anger mounting against austerity and ever widening social inequality, as shown in the recent 175,000-strong Quebec construction workers’ strike, groups like Fightback, Socialist Action, and the International Socialists (IS) have seized on the NDP’s ongoing leadership campaign to propagate the fatal illusion that this right-wing, capitalist party can be transformed into a fighting “working class” organization.

The pseudo left’s primary goal in this is to prevent the emergence of an independent movement of the working class, by harnessing the growing anti-capitalist sentiment among workers and youth to the trade union apparatuses and the social-democratic NDP.

As proof that the NDP can be “returned” to its purported “left-wing” roots, Fightback, Socialist Action, and the IS all point to Bernie Sanders’ phony “political revolution” and Jeremy Corbyn’s winning of the British Labour leadership on a pledge to oppose austerity.

The pseudo left groups have been shamelessly appealing to the union bureaucracy and NDP parliamentarians to bring forth a “Canadian Corbyn”—Fightback speaks of “corbynizing” the NDP—arguing such a development would boost the NDP’s electoral fortunes and galvanize opposition to austerity.

In reality Sanders and Corbyn, with the full-throated support of the international co-thinkers of Fightback, Socialist Action and IS, are working might and main to contain social opposition within traditional parties of the capitalist establishment and under conditions where the ruling elite is hurtling to the right— pursuing a more aggressive, militarist foreign policy, while seeking to destroy what remains of the social gains workers made through the mass struggles of the last century ...

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Controlling the dialogue and limiting political choice is the most effective way they can see to keep the herd inside the boundaries.

Well summed - and maybe applicable to other groups, too.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The pseudo left has realized one thing after looking at the election of Donald Trump, the Brexit and the multitude of nationalist movements springing up across Europe: the "working class" is not at all interested in the issues the pseudo left is pushing, and if workers get to choose, they will choose a Donald Trump over a silk stocking socialist like Stephen Lewis any day.

Controlling the dialogue and limiting political choice is the most effective way they can see to keep the herd inside the boundaries.

All of the nationalists in Europe lost- LePen significantly. Trump has some of the lowest approval ratings in the history of the presidency and lost the popular vote (yes, I know he won the college and it doesn't matter, but it matters in your argument).

I disagree with your analysis- the evidence doesn't back it.

 

[a_majoor]

The argument about nationalist parties should be looked at in totality. Nationalist parties are in power in Poland and Hungary, and have made steady gains in the polls in Western European nations as well. The Front National, Dutch "Party for Freedom" German AfD and Italian "Five Stars" movement hardly existed a decade ago, and even five years ago were curiosities, rather than strong contenders and coming in second or third in elections. The only reason they are not fully in command is the PR electoral systems in Europe allow coalitions to be formed expressly against them by politicians (most of whom share little common interests with each other otherwise).

President Trump's supposed low popularity ratings are derived from the same polling companies which showed Hillary Clinton wining in a landslide, and to further muddy the "popular vote" argument, the pro Hillary popular vote was concentrated in a handful of US counties, as you can see in an granular electoral map.

The meta argument isn't that politicians have control over the apparatus of governments for now in Europe, or that there are pockets of voters who did not vote for President Trump, but rather that the political "Left" is flailing about trying to get working class voters (their supposed constituency) to vote for them despite decades of catering to issues and groups which working class people either have no interest in or despise. Populists like Trump or Nationalists like the European parties are appealing to working class voters because they cater to the wants and needs of these people, and the political left (and even the traditional right) is collapsing because a new breed of politicians is assembling a new electoral coalition using different ideas, tools and methodologies than the old parties.

 

[Kirkhill]

Put me in the proud nationalist camp. 

I also happen to be centrist economically and lean towards the libertarian end of the authority spectrum.

The Labour Party in Britain is split between National Socialists and followers of the Internationale.

The Conservative Party is split between National Capitalists and Globalist followers of the EU.

6 Billion people, all with different shades of opinion.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Conservatives are obnoxious when it comes to asking for money.

I became a party member and donated some cash without realizing the amount of harassment I'd get. I didn't know my email address would be whored out across the party and get emails asking for donations from everyone.  I lost count of how many of these I'd get. I'll usually switch between unsubscribing and hitting reply and asking them questions such as why was my home address given out to the NFA, what's being done to sanction the guilty people responsible and what assurances I'll have in the future that my personal information is secure.

Never heard anything back from those emails.  I got a call a little while ago from a party donation harasser asking me to donate. I tried to engage them in a conversation about the same stuff. Why was my information given out? She expertly lowered her voice, changed her demeanor and blamed a sort of rogue party member, assured me they were being dealt with and how much money will I be donating?I started asking other firearm related questions. Why does the RCMP still have access to the deleted long gun registry? What will be done about thousands of Canadians being criminals now for owning 10/22 mags etc..  Good questions! If you'll only just donate money we can fix all that for you. Finally she realized she wasn't getting anywhere, gave me a 1800 number and hung up. I called the number, left a voice mail for someone to call me back (twice) to answer my questions but never got a call back.

The most recent email I got asking for donations I replied and said " I'd really like to donate money! How can I do this?'. Within a day I had a voicemail from them trying to get in touch with me and 3 more over the next couple days.  I'm up to 5 missed calls in under a week lol

I'm sure I'm being a cry baby and naive. I just wish the conservatives would pretend to give a shit about my concerns a little more.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... I became a party member and donated some cash without realizing the amount of harassment I'd get. I didn't know my email address would be whored out across the party and get emails asking for donations from everyone ...

To be fair to Team Blue, I suspect Team Red & Team Orange share their lists a lot more broadly than some members want.  I don't donate, but I'm on mailing lists for all three, and once the emails start, they don't stop - and they don't make it easy to unsubscribe (like trying to cancel your cable subscription).  That said ...

... She expertly lowered her voice, changed her demeanor and blamed a sort of rogue party member ...

If that really was the case, I hope someone jumped on it.

... I'm sure I'm being a cry baby and naive ...

Hardly - expecting your privacy to be respected isn't out of line at all.

 

[a_majoor]

I made the mistake of coming out for a pre election speech by Patrick Brown, and am now on a multitude of mailing lists as well. What makes this even more annoying is based on the speech and a few conversations I have been able to have with PCPO people, they are like to go down in flames again since they don't seem to have any other answers than "Liberal Lite". Hardly an inspiring message or preparation for an election, especially given the massive and negative changes in Ontario since 2002, and certainly not a reason for me to support them.

While "Trump lite" isn't going to cut it either, the PCPO (and indeed the Conservatives) need to look at the lessons of the recent past and effectively message the people who have been disadvantaged and seen their opportunities and standards of living diminish since 2002 in Ontario. Like the leftists in the article referenced upthread, the Liberals (both provincial and Federal) are advocating for things which most working class people have no interest in or actively oppose, while ignoring the real issues that affect them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Conservatives are obnoxious when it comes to asking for money.

I became a party member and donated some cash without realizing the amount of harassment I'd get. I didn't know my email address would be whored out across the party and get emails asking for donations from everyone.  I lost count of how many of these I'd get. I'll usually switch between unsubscribing and hitting reply and asking them questions such as why was my home address given out to the NFA, what's being done to sanction the guilty people responsible and what assurances I'll have in the future that my personal information is secure.

Never heard anything back from those emails.  I got a call a little while ago from a party donation harasser asking me to donate. I tried to engage them in a conversation about the same stuff. Why was my information given out? She expertly lowered her voice, changed her demeanor and blamed a sort of rogue party member, assured me they were being dealt with and how much money will I be donating?I started asking other firearm related questions. Why does the RCMP still have access to the deleted long gun registry? What will be done about thousands of Canadians being criminals now for owning 10/22 mags etc..  Good questions! If you'll only just donate money we can fix all that for you. Finally she realized she wasn't getting anywhere, gave me a 1800 number and hung up. I called the number, left a voice mail for someone to call me back (twice) to answer my questions but never got a call back.

The most recent email I got asking for donations I replied and said " I'd really like to donate money! How can I do this?'. Within a day I had a voicemail from them trying to get in touch with me and 3 more over the next couple days.  I'm up to 5 missed calls in under a week lol

I'm sure I'm being a cry baby and naive. I just wish the conservatives would pretend to give a crap about my concerns a little more.

I am on both the CPC and Libs mailing list, I don't get calls from the Libs but their e-mails are pretty much a carbon copy of the other. When the CPC was in my trained seal MP never bothered responding to my concerns about the closing of the Kits CCG base, until I stuffed the letter into a donation envelope. From now on I am saving those envelopes as they are useful.

 

[Scott]

Conservatives are obnoxious when it comes to asking for money.

I became a party member and donated some cash without realizing the amount of harassment I'd get. I didn't know my email address would be whored out across the party and get emails asking for donations from everyone.  I lost count of how many of these I'd get. I'll usually switch between unsubscribing and hitting reply and asking them questions such as why was my home address given out to the NFA, what's being done to sanction the guilty people responsible and what assurances I'll have in the future that my personal information is secure.

Never heard anything back from those emails.  I got a call a little while ago from a party donation harasser asking me to donate. I tried to engage them in a conversation about the same stuff. Why was my information given out? She expertly lowered her voice, changed her demeanor and blamed a sort of rogue party member, assured me they were being dealt with and how much money will I be donating?I started asking other firearm related questions. Why does the RCMP still have access to the deleted long gun registry? What will be done about thousands of Canadians being criminals now for owning 10/22 mags etc..  Good questions! If you'll only just donate money we can fix all that for you. Finally she realized she wasn't getting anywhere, gave me a 1800 number and hung up. I called the number, left a voice mail for someone to call me back (twice) to answer my questions but never got a call back.

The most recent email I got asking for donations I replied and said " I'd really like to donate money! How can I do this?'. Within a day I had a voicemail from them trying to get in touch with me and 3 more over the next couple days.  I'm up to 5 missed calls in under a week lol

I'm sure I'm being a cry baby and naive. I just wish the conservatives would pretend to give a shit about my concerns a little more.

Heck yes  :nod:

Had I know registering to vote in the leadership would gain me gazoodles of spam, I likely wouldn't have bothered.

I reply to the odd one as well - never got a damn thing back. Funny that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Heck yes  :nod:

Had I know registering to vote in the leadership would gain me gazoodles of spam, I likely wouldn't have bothered.

I reply to the odd one as well - never got a damn thing back. Funny that.

You'll receive the same from whatever party you decide to join. This is far from a CPC anomaly.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I made the mistake of coming out for a pre election speech by Patrick Brown, and am now on a multitude of mailing lists as well. What makes this even more annoying is based on the speech and a few conversations I have been able to have with PCPO people, they are like to go down in flames again since they don't seem to have any other answers than "Liberal Lite". Hardly an inspiring message or preparation for an election, especially given the massive and negative changes in Ontario since 2002, and certainly not a reason for me to support them.

Its possible that the PCs are keeping their plans secret to prevent the Liberals from stealing the good ones/or planning a counter-argument.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You'll receive the same from whatever party you decide to join. This is far from a CPC anomaly.

Very true I'm sure. Just disappointed.

 

[Good2Golf]

Trump-related/centric posts have been moved to the U.S. Politics 2017 thread. 

Let's retain the Canadian focus of this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Scott]

You'll receive the same from whatever party you decide to join. This is far from a CPC anomaly.

Oh I'm sure of that. I just don't happen to hold membership with anyone but the CPC right now, so they're the focus of this.

 

[Lumber]

Trump-related/centric posts have been moved to the U.S. Politics 2017 thread. 

Let's retain the Canadian focus of this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Milnet.ca Staff

Ugh.. but our post count doesn't go up when we post in Radio Chatter!

Humbug....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A lot of the people that work for the parties all are trained in the same schools by the same teachers, so they all approach the issues the same way with the same tools. After awhile the parties start to sound more and more like each other, meanwhile the average voter is finding that they don't really fit into any one particular political box and have interests that might fall across 2 or more political parties.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... the average voter is finding that they don't really fit into any one particular political box and have interests that might fall across 2 or more political parties.

And that's where hyper-partisanism in all directions makes it hard to find some of those "meet somewhere in the middle" solutions and positions.

A (generally) conservative municipal politician that I have some respect for once told me that's why he liked civic politics:  you can take positions on different issues as needed and as they fit the shades of grey that are many people's political positions.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Kinda torn 50-50 whether to put this here or in the Khadr thread, but sided with this thread because of the politics involved -- this could apply to any opposition politician doing a media dissing campaign against anything the current Canadian government is doing ...

Most Canadians oppose the decision of some Conservative MPs to appear in the U.S. media criticizing the federal Liberals’ $10.5-million payout to Omar Khadr, according to a new Nanos survey.

Conservative MPs have been expressing outrage over Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s decision to approve the multimillion-dollar payment, which settled Mr. Khadr’s $20-million civil lawsuit against the government over violations of his rights as a Canadian citizen.

(...)

Some Conservative MPs took the extra step of sharply criticizing the Liberal government in American news outlets. Foreign affairs critic Peter Kent wrote a column for The Wall Street Journal titled “A terrorist’s big payday, courtesy of Trudeau,” while Conservative MP Michelle Rempel told Fox News host Tucker Carlson on air that “most Canadians are absolutely outraged about this.”

When asked for their opinion on the decision of federal Conservative MPs to criticize the Khadr payment in the U.S. media, more than six out of 10 Canadians said they feel uncomfortable or somewhat uncomfortable about the actions of the Conservative MPs.

“Going south to attack the Liberal government was definitely not a growth strategy,” said pollster Nik Nanos, noting that separate polling by Nanos shows a decline in support for the Conservative Party in recent weeks as the party focused on the Khadr decision.

“For some, it might be the right message, but it’s definitely in the wrong format and the wrong place and I think that’s where the Conservatives are vulnerable on this,” he said.

Nanos’ tracking of voting intentions had support for the Conservatives at 28.6 per cent when Andrew Scheer was elected by members as the new leader of the party on May 27. The party’s support then climbed to 33 per cent in early July before falling back to 29.1 per cent at the end of the month.

During that same period, support for the Liberals has declined from 40.34 per cent in a May 26 poll to 36.7 on July 28. Support for the NDP rose from 16.72 per cent in late May to 20 per cent in late July.

“What we’ve seen is that [the Conservatives] have reversed the momentum that they created after their leadership with their focus on Omar Khadr,” said Mr. Nanos.

Further, about half of Canadians surveyed said they believe that openly criticizing the decision to pay Mr. Khadr $10.5-million in the U.S. media will have a negative or somewhat negative impact on Canada-U.S. relations.

The findings in relation to the Conservatives and Mr. Khadr are based on a hybrid phone and online survey of 1,000 Canadians that included a mix of land and cell lines. It was commissioned by The Globe and Mail and conducted between July 23-26 as part of an omnibus survey. The margin of error for a random survey of 1,000 Canadians is plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The party support numbers are based on a four-week rolling sample comprised of 1,000 interviews in total, with 250 new interviews conducted each week ...