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Politics in 2013

Well, if one thing is quite evident to those who really look, the Prime Minister was indeed correct when he told Duffy to pay the money back, whether he was right or wrong, due to the "perception" that would arise.  The "perception" has been the news for months now.  Whether either party is guilty or not, it is the "perception" that is the news.

Another problem is the "perception" that the PMO is the Prime Minister.  They are two different entities.  One is the group of individuals who serve the Prime Minister, and the other is an individual who can not be expected to know all the intricate aspects in the lives of others, including his/her staff.
 
Just listening to Senator Wallin and she is making some good points.

The Senate needs to be reformed - Elected, Effective and Equal.
 
Apparently the PM is hitting back, and actually answering instead of what he did yesterday which was spew some talking point.
 
>the PMO is far too powerful an organization in a supposedly democratic country.

I think you understate the problem.
 
Actually the PMO is only as powerful as elected MPs, Conservatives and Liberals, have allowed and still allow it to be.

The centralization of authority in the PMO began under Pierre Trudeau, in 1975, when he appointed Michael Pitfield as Clerk of the Privy Council and Jim Coutts as Chief of Staff and steadily stripped authority away from PCO and ministers and worked to a new "master plan." The then ministers and MPs did not resign or protest. Brian Mulroney did nothing to redress the power imbalance; none of his ministers or MPs resigned in outrage, either. As we saw in testimony at the Gomery Inquiry, Jean Chrétien's PMOs, although somewhat shrunken in both size and influence, still reached deep into departments, past ministers and deputies, when necessary, to control actions that interested the PM, himself. Still no resignations based on the principle that ministers and MPs ought to be relatively independent of the "hired guns" in the PMO. Stephen Harper's PMO is about as powerful as Trudeau's was and I have only seen one CPC MP resign from caucus on principle ~ Brent Rathgeber.

Maybe a handful of Conservative Senators (led by Hugh Segal?) will set an example by revolting against PMO control and not expelling Pamela Wallin.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
Maybe a handful of Conservative Senators (led by Hugh Segal?) will set an example by revolting against PMO control and not expelling Pamela Wallin.
That would be a HUGELY interesting development, but I'm not optimistic that even someone like Segal would be willing to take on PMO and the PM.

Now if the PM did something about his PMO .....  :pop:
 
There's no reason for a PMO to do much to or about his PMO. As I mentioned, Jean Chrétien did reduce both the size and power of the PMO ... on some issues. On issues that were central to M. Chrétien's personal agenda ~ which appeared to include his personal business dealings ~ the PMO remained all powerful and was feared in Ottawa, more feared, i think than is PM Harper's PMO today.

But PMs do have agendas, and they aren't really hidden. I doubt anyone is really surprised about many of the policies PM Harper has advanced: many are generally and genuinely conservative in that they aim to restrict government, in general. I am pretty sure he would have encountered some resistance from the PCO and ministries on several policies - long gun registry, long form census, C-17s, etc. I am also pretty sure he then used the power of his PMO ~ power he inherited from Trudeau/Pitfield/Coutts ~ to push his priorities through, despite both internal political and public service dissent.
 
George Wallace said:
Another problem is the "perception" that the PMO is the Prime Minister.  They are two different entities.  One is the group of individuals who serve the Prime Minister, and the other is an individual who can not be expected to know all the intricate aspects in the lives of others, including his/her staff.
This is where you lose me.  Since being elected, more and more threads of communication and information have been gathered in by the PMO and the PM to the point that an MP can't sneeze without it being reviewed and approved first.  The claim that the PM knew nothing about what would obviously be a potentially major scandal until late in the game and then did not follow up suggests to me that he is:

1. Lying;
2. Inattentive to the goings on of his staff;
3. Willfully blind; or,
4. Purposefully being kept in the dark by his staff.

None of these look good for Mr Harper .  And, in many ways, the last one would be the most disturbing as the head of our government is being prevented from getting information to make informed decisions.  It doesn't matter if they were trying to protect him or they were trying not to get caught, there seems to be a culture in the PMO that is disturbing to me coming from a government that campaigned and won their first election on a platform of transparency.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Actually the PMO is only as powerful as elected MPs, Conservatives and Liberals, have allowed and still allow it to be...

Agreed: and this IMHO is a big part of the problem. All PMs of all political stripes probably enjoy the power this office exerts, and the ability to get things done "off the net".

E.R. Campbell said:
Maybe a handful of Conservative Senators (led by Hugh Segal?) will set an example by revolting against PMO control and not expelling Pamela Wallin.

I was wondering about this too. This whole business must be mortifying for a PM with such a penchant for tightly disciplined "info ops": a palace revolt would only be a further nightmare.

Or not..... It could be an oportunity to smoke out any independent thinkers whose ideas of being a Conservative don't match with the PM's, and to give the PM a stage to make a public demonstration of how they will beat the nasty, undemocratic and corrupt  Senate into shape.
 
Or it could be a blessing in disguise ...

My guess is that the Supremes will say that:

    1. The Senate cannot be abolished without a full blown constitutional change; but

    2. The PM has broad latitude within the existing Constitution (§§ 23-33) to decide how to select senators but he (the GG, actually, but on the PMs advice) must (§§ 21 & 24), periodically, "summon" senators
        so he also cannot allow it to wither and die.

If that happens my guess is that PM Harper will insist that provinces elect their own senators or he will cause them to be elected under federal authority.
 
jpjohnsn said:
This is where you lose me.  Since being elected, more and more threads of communication and information have been gathered in by the PMO and the PM to the point that an MP can't sneeze without it being reviewed and approved first.  The claim that the PM knew nothing about what would obviously be a potentially major scandal until late in the game and then did not follow up suggests to me that he is:

1. Lying;
2. Inattentive to the goings on of his staff;
3. Willfully blind; or,
4. Purposefully being kept in the dark by his staff.

None of these look good for Mr Harper .  And, in many ways, the last one would be the most disturbing as the head of our government is being prevented from getting information to make informed decisions.  It doesn't matter if they were trying to protect him or they were trying not to get caught, there seems to be a culture in the PMO that is disturbing to me coming from a government that campaigned and won their first election on a platform of transparency.

Really?  If I may, I will use you as an example.  Your profile says you are a Capt in the Cadet program.  Can you as such, honestly tell us that you are privy to every aspect in the lives of those under your supervision? 
 
jpjohnsn said:
This is where you lose me.  Since being elected, more and more threads of communication and information have been gathered in by the PMO and the PM to the point that an MP can't sneeze without it being reviewed and approved first.  The claim that the PM knew nothing about what would obviously be a potentially major scandal until late in the game and then did not follow up suggests to me that he is:

1. Lying;
2. Inattentive to the goings on of his staff;
3. Willfully blind; or,
4. Purposefully being kept in the dark by his staff.

None of these look good for Mr Harper .  And, in many ways, the last one would be the most disturbing as the head of our government is being prevented from getting information to make informed decisions.  It doesn't matter if they were trying to protect him or they were trying not to get caught, there seems to be a culture in the PMO that is disturbing to me coming from a government that campaigned and won their first election on a platform of transparency.

I have to agree.  The fact is that the PM had three caucus members from the Senate embroilled on what was starting to become national news.  Their residency and their exopenses were coming to light in a prominent way and I find it very suspect that he would not be briefed on a regular basis about this.  And if he wasn't then plenty of people should be fired.

This is a complete disaster.  Again, the Conservatives are resorting to old true and tried tactics that are failing them.  They can't get this to go away.  Blame the media, blame the public, but eventually you have to blame yourself. 

Bringing this motion to suspend at this time was a complete miscalculation.  i'm not sure what they were thinking. I will assume they wanted them to go away and be placed out of sight and out of mind.  It worked for Guerguis and others but these three are fighting back and breathing even more life into this story.

Doing this, eclipsed CETA.  Doing this will likely make for an uncomfortable party convention as well.  They underestimated the public and they underestimated at least two of these Senators who decided not to be thrown under the bus by themselves.

The PM I think can salvage this IF he keeps up like he did yesterday.  ANSWER the questions, not with ridiculous robotic talking points, but with answers that are direct, firm and get the point accross.  The PM can easily frame this as him taking on excess and innapropriate behaviour.  Instead he's only managed to implicate himself.  Yesterday was the first time he's managed to re-frame the story or at least his part in it.

The other issue, which I think is more serious for the Pm is his own party.  I will be curious to see if the Conservative Senators are whipped how many might break ranks.
 
Crantor said:
The PM I think can salvage this IF he keeps up like he did yesterday.  ANSWER the questions, not with ridiculous robotic talking points, but with answers that are direct, firm and get the point accross.  The PM can easily frame this as him taking on excess and innapropriate behaviour.  Instead he's only managed to implicate himself.  Yesterday was the first time he's managed to re-frame the story or at least his part in it.
Call me a wild-eyed optimist, but I agree.  Direct, firm and get the point across answers early on prevent festering later on.
George Wallace said:
Another problem is the "perception" that the PMO is the Prime Minister.  They are two different entities.  One is the group of individuals who serve the Prime Minister, and the other is an individual who can not be expected to know all the intricate aspects in the lives of others, including his/her staff.
This isn't about what they had for lunch, it's about what they were doing at work in the name of the PM.  We're talking an organization of ~100 people, not hundreds or thousands.  If someone screwed up, the PM has to be seen to do something about it.  A Chief of Staff has come & gone, but it sounds like more than just he was involved.

As in most "he says she says" situations, I'd have to agree with this ....
E.R. Campbell said:
My guess is that both Duffy and Harper are telling the truth but that neither is telling the whole truth. I suspect that Nigel Wright did tell some other people about the Duffy transaction, but not, ever, the prime minister.
But I also agree that the the former COS would have been too smart to let the PM know about "the deal".  And the PM would have been too smart to ask in more detail.
 
George Wallace said:
Really?  If I may, I will use you as an example.  Your profile says you are a Capt in the Cadet program.  Can you as such, honestly tell us that you are privy to every aspect in the lives of those under your supervision?
If there was trouble coming down the pike directly to related to squadron activities, and one or more of my direct subordinates knew about it, yes, I'd like to think I wouldn't be caught napping.  And if I'd given directions to fix the problem, I'd be sure to follow up to make sure it happened.
 
I am sorry, but having worked as an EA to a General, COS are very good at keeping their General out of the loop purposely to protect him from the nasty flying brown stuff.  Indeed, it is one of the jobs of COS to fall on his sword for a commander over the admin storms.  IF, the COS has not been proactive in steering around those storms that is.  Wright did good as a COS, maybe not the right thing but the loyal thing.

Duffy and Wallin have long been in the Prima Dona class of Canadians, they are having a hard time grasping that they did anything wrong.  That is really whats going on here.  If caught, I would have immediately admitted, apologized and ask mercy.  Had that been done this would have been over.  Both are acting as spoiled children and should be hung to dry.

I see nothing on this issue that would cause me to not vote Conservative again (other issues are another story).  Heck we are up to 3 Liberal senators in hot water now and they are getting an incredibly easy ride.
 
Lightguns said:
......  Heck we are up to 3 Liberal senators in hot water now and they are getting an incredibly easy ride.

And flying fairly much under the radar. 

This is one of the faucets of political life; scandals are so easily raised or fabricated if you wish.  Currently I don't see any of our Political Parties as being dedicated to "building Canada"; but more concerned more with their own personal political and financial gain.  They are all the same, and we the electorate are left with little choice but to elect the lesser of two or more evils.  How I wish we had a strong leader and Party that wanted to "build" Canada into a strong, prosperous nation, not selling off our natural resources, industry and intellect to foreign interests for a short term financial gain.  One can dream, I guess.
 
Lightguns said:
I am sorry, but having worked as an EA to a General, COS are very good at keeping their General out of the loop purposely to protect him from the nasty flying brown stuff.  Indeed, it is one of the jobs of COS to fall on his sword for a commander over the admin storms.  IF, the COS has not been proactive in steering around those storms that is.  Wright did good as a COS, maybe not the right thing but the loyal thing.

Duffy and Wallin have long been in the Prima Dona class of Canadians, they are having a hard time grasping that they did anything wrong.  That is really whats going on here.  If caught, I would have immediately admitted, apologized and ask mercy.  Had that been done this would have been over.  Both are acting as spoiled children and should be hung to dry.

I see nothing on this issue that would cause me to not vote Conservative again (other issues are another story).  Heck we are up to 3 Liberal senators in hot water now and they are getting an incredibly easy ride.

:goodpost:

I was, de facto COS to a Flag Officer back in the late 1980s. (My title was Director of This and That Policy, but my duties were those of a Chief of Staff). I screened and sorted into an order of priority almost everything that came in (there were a couple of exceptions - "eyes only" stuff from on high - but they were very, very rare). The screening process allowed me to remove things from the "chain:" perhaps to send them back to divisions for more work because I was sure the admiral would be unhappy with what was presented, perhaps to deflect them to another branch because I didn't think they were our responsibility, sometimes to put them into limbo for at least a while because I didn't want the boss to get involved in something of dubious judgement.

When I moved things out of the way because they didn't pas my "smell test" I was, de facto, taking personal responsibility for them and "covering up," too.

I will tell you that, on principle, my boss wanted to see the embarrassing things so that he could put them right but he also understood that, in practice, he accepted that I was doing the necessary thing (not the right thing, just the necessary thing) to free him up to focus on his real work. We got through a couple of years of that. I can well recall that one problem I "punted" came back to haunt (and end the career of) the individual who started it but my boss was untouched and I was barely singed in the resulting firestorm. I remember telling the COS to an even more senior officer that I had decided to kick the problem back towards the originator rather than report it up the chain because we were too busy and it didn't seem like our business. He smiled slightly as he admonished me for being "expedient."

In the case of Stephen Harper, Nigel Wright and Mike Duffy, I repeat: Harper, Wright and Duffy are all telling some of the truth. Harper and Wright are not telling and will not tell any lies, but Prime Minister Harper, at least, will skate around some embarrassing bits.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I was, de facto COS to a Flag Officer back in the late 1980s. (My title was Director of This and That Policy, but my duties were those of a Chief of Staff). I screened and sorted into an order of priority almost everything that came in (there were a couple of exceptions - "eyes only" stuff from on high - but they were very, very rare). The screening process allowed me to remove things from the "chain:" perhaps to send them back to divisions for more work because I was sure the admiral would be unhappy with what was presented, perhaps to deflect them to another branch because I didn't think they were our responsibility, sometimes to put them into limbo for at least a while because I didn't want the boss to get involved in something of dubious judgement.

When I moved things out of the way because they didn't pas my "smell test" I was, de facto, taking personal responsibility for them and "covering up," too.

I will tell you that, on principle, my boss wanted to see the embarrassing things so that he could put them right but he also understood that, in practice, he accepted that I was doing the necessary thing (not the right thing, just the necessary thing) to free him up to focus on his real work. We got through a couple of years of that. I can well recall that one problem I "punted" came back to haunt (and end the career of) the individual who started it but my boss was untouched and I was barely singed in the resulting firestorm. I remember telling the COS to an even more senior officer that I had decided to kick the problem back towards the originator rather than report it up the chain because we were too busy and it didn't seem like our business. He smiled slightly as he admonished me for being "expedient."

In the case of Stephen Harper, Nigel Wright and Mike Duffy, I repeat: Harper, Wright and Duffy are all telling some of the truth. Harper and Wright are not telling and will not tell any lies, but Prime Minister Harper, at least, will skate around some embarrassing bits.

I agree. 

That is the point I have been trying some to understand.  The PM is aided by his staff in the PMO in the performance of his duties.  At the same time his staff, as part of their "duties" will filter things, perhaps triage things, that come in and at times the boss will not know of them.  The Prime Minister is not "all seeing; all knowing".  He is a very busy man and only human.  For us to expect more is rather largest on our part. 
 
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