Political impacts of Ukraine war

[Remius]

Musk isn't a foreign visitor.

Not a very effective leader if he can't see when his ego ought be set aside, and do so.

It doesn't matter who started it, and my advice implicitly assumes that Trump and his people are likely to be the first to breach civility.

It means everything. How many years of witnessing Trump's behaviour is necessary for the people who think of themselves as "adults" to grasp the lesson and behave as that which they claim.

I fully expect apologists to make this Zelensky’s fault. But the video doesn’t lie nor do the comments they made that shows us what this is all about.

We’ve tried the high road ourselves and we are still getting tariffs and threats of annexation. It. does. Not. Matter.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Zelensky could have shown up in white tie and tails and still been treated like shit.
I'm surprised he wasn't told to come in through the servants entrance and handed a pair of knee pads and a bottle of mouthwash.

But he wasn't. The discussion took place in the Oval Office. All he had to do was keep his mouth shut when provoked and smile or give an accepting nod of the head if he couldn't find some diplomatic words to utter, unless he really didn't want the deal that was nearing completion.

People are trying to excuse Zelensky's blunder. They shouldn't. If Trump (or Vance, or anyone else) behaves offensively, don't return in kind, even from the floor of your own legislature, unless you don't want anything from them for the next few years.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I fully expect apologists to make this Zelensky’s fault.

These two things can be (are) true:
1. Trump and Vance were rude.
2. Zelensky f*cked up.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The exchange Zelensky had with Trump and Vance in the oval office was wild.

I think what we saw is exactly what happens during talks like this. The public just never gets to see it. Vehement disagreement and emotion are human nature and are going to happen. Especially with everyone involved is an Alpha male.

Trump is trying hard to have a totally transparent government. Perhaps he just learned what that really means.

 

[Remius]

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/28/tass-oval-office-trump-zelenskyy-00206739

Banning AP and Reuters and letting Russian state media in is not suspicious at all…

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Musk set the tone wit no suits in the White House.

Zelensky clearly didn’t see himself as a supplicant.

Vance started the temper tantrum to a very reasonable question brought on by him. He should have kept quiet.

High road means nothing these days.

Zelenski never wears a suit. Musk had nothing to do with how he was dressed. Neither does John Fetterman.

 

[Remius]

Zelenski never wears a suit. Musk had nothing to do with how he was dressed. Neither does John Fetterman.

My point exactly. The whole suit thing is a ridiculous vector for what went on there.

 

[Kirkhill]

When you go to the WH as an approximate supplicant, wear a suit and hold your own temper in check no matter what happens.

In the choice between pig-wrestling with a notoriously volatile and obnoxious person or taking the high road, so many people keep choosing the former.

Sorry. Disagree on that.

Zelensky is Trump's equal. He has no need to bow any further than Trump.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

My point exactly. The whole suit thing is a ridiculous vector for what went on there.

High level talks should be conducted in the nude. It would humble the participants.

 

[Remius]

High level talks should be conducted in the nude. It would humble the participants.

No one needs to be that transparent

 

[Kirkhill]

No one needs to be that transparent

You have to know what the first week of conversation would be about in that case. Assuming it wasn't a room full of ladies.

 

[Kirkhill]

Trump’s outburst means Europe must act

Starmer’s defence spending increase will not be sufficient

www.telegraph.co.uk

The Western alliance appears to be on the brink. In an appalling exchange in the Oval Office, what ought to have been a reconciliation between President Trump, Vice President JD Vance, and Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky descended into an outright shouting match as the Americans berated Mr Zelensky in front of a watching world. It was a chilling scene which will have worried everyone in Britain and Europe concerned for the security of their continent.

Such a public display of aggression from the White House towards any Western leader, let alone that of a valued ally locked in an existential military struggle, is unprecedented. Mr Trump and Mr Vance were indisputably in the wrong, factually, geopolitically and morally. The manner in which they chose to make their argument put the fractures in the Western coalition on full display and handed Vladimir Putin a propaganda victory.

What can I say? I agree.

Start placing orders with South Korea, Turkey and the UAE. And Roshel.

 

[Remius]

Trump’s outburst means Europe must act

Starmer’s defence spending increase will not be sufficient

www.telegraph.co.uk

What can I say? I agree.

Start placing orders with South Korea, Turkey and the UAE. And Roshel.

But he wasn’t wearing a suit!

 

[dapaterson]

But he wasn’t wearing a suit!

Imagine if it was a tan suit.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sorry. Disagree on that.

Zelensky is Trump's equal. He has no need to bow any further than Trump.

He is Trump's peer, but not Trump's equal, and Zelensky isn't there to negotiate from a position of equal strength.

The US might want stuff from Ukraine, but doesn't have urgent need the way Ukraine does.

I mentioned framing in another thread. Some people advance the idea that the US owes Ukraine something for absorbing Russia's expenditure of resources. That's one frame. Contrarily, some Americans take the view they neither needed nor wanted Ukraine to do that, and already had NATO and their own might to deal with Russia, if indeed Russia dared attempt much.

If A does something unlooked-for that benefits B, it doesn't follow that B owes A.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Nobody was blameless in this exchange.

How much each participant was at fault depends on your point of view, favourite news outlet and newspaper.

But everyone played a part.

 

[Kirkhill]

He is Trump's peer, but not Trump's equal, and Zelensky isn't there to negotiate from a position of equal strength.

The US might want stuff from Ukraine, but doesn't have urgent need the way Ukraine does.

I mentioned framing in another thread. Some people advance the idea that the US owes Ukraine something for absorbing Russia's expenditure of resources. That's one frame. Contrarily, some Americans take the view they neither needed nor wanted Ukraine to do that, and already had NATO and their own might to deal with Russia, if indeed Russia dared attempt much.

If A does something unlooked-for that benefits B, it doesn't follow that B owes A.

Look man, I came from a Kirk where we don't bend a knee to God. Zelensky is not there to kiss anybody's ring.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Look man, I came from a Kirk where we don't bend a knee to God. Zelensky is not there to kiss anybody's ring.

Zelensky is there to cut a deal Ukraine needs, not to preen.

I've bitched before about politicians who subvert the interests of the people they serve by letting their egos get in the way. Zelensky is one of them.

 

[Kirkhill]

There are limits to everything

 

[Kirkhill]

And just a reminder that this stuff impacts on other countries as well...

AUKUS? What AUKUS?

Trump’s AUKUS embarrassment shows insignificance of deal to the President​

Donald Trump’s inability to recognise the acronym AUKUS when asked about it in the Oval Office tell us a few home truths about where this deal – which is central to Australia’s defence planning – ranks in the President’s head

Cameron Stewart
Chief International Correspondent

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/