PM's New Bde of Peacekeepers (5,000 new soldiers), could it be a SOC Light Force?

[canuck101]

Yard Ape

                      you are right on the money. We  you are talking about a liberal government here.  They want Canadian to think we can do everything everywhere.  they just don't put the money down in investment and time to maintain a well balance armed forces.  the only thing i think we have on our side is that they are in a minority and the Conservatives on there heels.  This would be the ideal time for them to ride the liberals.  Do i hear the liberals saying we don't have enough money it must go to provinces for health care.  I promise you that is what they are going to say to the military.  You must find the money in the department somewhere.

cheers

 

[DJL]

the only thing i think we have on our side is that they are in a minority and the Conservatives on there heels.

Sadly, I doubt it would mater........IMHO, I can't see the Bloc and/or NDP supporting the Tories on putting the Fiberals feet to the fire when it comes to defence spending  :-\

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sometimes, the plan presented is structured so as to make it deliberately unappealing in the hope a different tack will be taken.

Sometimes, the bluff is called.

It will be interesting if the government follows through and demonstrates once again that among the very few campaign promises they seem to be able to keep are those which can be paid for at the expense of defence.

 

[Jungle]

The ideal structure for a "peacekeeping" brigade would be the same ideal structure for our other brigades.   Primarily mech infantry with advanced Command, Control, Communication, Sensing, and Information systems (consistent with the RMA) armed with precision weapons, and self-sustaining.   It would be suited for low to high intensity warfare.   It would just be a new 4 CMBG.

There is probably a way around this... First we activate 3 new Infantry Battalions, to replace the LIBs in the three existing Brigades. Then we create a new Formation (Special Service Force or Brigade, or Special Operations Command, or... ???). Included in this new Formation would be the three LIBs, JTF-2, CPC and support units. The LIBs would be able to develop into Spec-Ops-capable units (similar to US Ranger Batts), as decided by the Army, something that will be impossible as long as they are in the current Bdes. We would then have 9 Batts avail for ongoing ops, plus this formation would be avail for emergencies, surprise or short-term deployments, civilian evac, national QRF etc...
It would be easier to develop a Light/ Special doctrine with those units under a unified Command, and we would achieve the "aim" of creating more units for Peace-support deployments. The rest of the 5000 troops (+/- 2500) could go to the trg system, existing Bdes, and the Navy/ Air Force.

 

[Slim]

(Special Service Force or Brigade, or Special Operations Command, or... ???). Included in this new Formation would be the three LIBs, JTF-2, CPC and support units. The LIBs would be able to develop into Spec-Ops-capable units (similar to US Ranger Batts), as decided by the Army, something that will be impossible as long as they are in the current Bdes.

Excellent post Jungle

The only thing I have to say is that I hope someone grows a pair of brass ones and tells the government that the term and mind set of Peacekeeping should be removed from the title or vocabulary of the formation. Soldiers are not good peacekeepers unless they train to be warfighters first.

My 2 cents

Slim

 

[Kirkhill]

While I understand what you mean about Peacekeeping Slim, if Paul is serious about this fourth brigade the first thing he has to do is sell it to the NDP, the Bloc and and that half of his caucus that thoroughly detests the US and anything that smacks of war, killing and dying.

If calling it a Peacekeeping formation is what it takes to get the numbers generated I am for it (with reservations).  We'd just have to trust the Army and the Regiments to instill the necessary mindset and supply the appropriate training.

By the way I like Jungle's way out of the problem. All we would need then are the aeroplanes that Paul told Harper were more useful than Aircraft Carriers.

Cheers, Chris.

 

[Yard Ape]

I think Jungle's proposal is the way to go (in fact I suggested the same thing not so long back: http://army.ca/forums/threads/17810.0.html)  However, I would not put the CPC into this formation (don't need to worry the commander with running a school when LFDTS already has it under control) and I cannot see the CF putting JTF-2 under Army control.

 

[Jungle]

However, I would not put the CPC into this formation (don't need to worry the commander with running a school when LFDTS already has it under control) and I cannot see the CF putting JTF-2 under Army control.

Maybe another way around this is to create a "Special Operationss Command". It would be directly under NDHQ, and would include all the units I mentionned previously. The LIBs could be grouped in a Light Bde, and they would be able to develop appropriately into spec-ops capable units; coord would be easier for support of JTF trg/ ops, and CPC pers could also be used in support roles (as in JM support when needed). We could then develop a true "Light" doctrine, without affecting the regular Bdes.

 

[The_Falcon]

So basically what you are saying Jungle is almost going back to the CAR formation circa 70s early 80s (cause they are going to need arty/eng/armour/CS/CSS) with the CPC and JTF2 to round it out it as a highly moblie "Special-Operations" Command/Brigade vice "Airborne", so as not to freak out the public and the politicians.   I like it.

 

[Danjanou]

I like it too. Using the camel's nose under the tent technique we can first have all 3 Lt Bns become Para qualified. Then the same with other Brigade units HQ/Sigs Enginners, Arty, CSS.  Eventually when we've lulled the politicos into a state of unawarness, bring out the laid up colours of the CAR and redesignate the 3 bns as Cdos.

Seriously I do like the idea of a seperate light Brigade and can even stomach calling it a Peace keeping Brigade if that's what it takes to get it funded by the Libs. We know what modern "Peace keeping" involves in regards to training and presuming we an get some senior officers to ensure it becomes and remains a light/airportable/SOF capable formation and not a colledction of social workers with a Cadpat dress code great.

Curious though Jungle are you advocating replacing the 3 Bns in the other Bdes  or going with a 2x Mech Inf Bn 1x Armd Regt org? If we do have a third Bn in the CMBGs, and I think we need them (or at the very least a designated trained and equipped 3rd Militia "roundout" Bn), what would the designation be? Are we going to see 4th PPCLI, 4th RCR and 4th R22Re as regular force units?

Or should we create (recreate) a 4th Light Infantry Regiment and then assign/rebadge the present 3 bns to it. That would leave the three present CMBGs more or less as they are now although with three Mech Inf Bns. This would also deal with the issues of differing infantry doctrines/training org ( Lt vs Mech) etc and  of transferring pers from Mech to Lt Bns in the same regiment issues as noted in another thread.

 

[Slim]

I actually applaude that idea very much.

An understrength brigade formation with its own logistics, communications kit and air support. People could be posted in and out just like any other normal command. You could even say it is expanding on the idea of the DART teams of the early 90's. The JSS (if we ever get them) should fit into this org rather nicely.

Maybe need to buy a few more assetts (not many) more new H-92's configured for tactical troop lift and support. Some air recce assetts (UAV's perhaps) and some heavy air lift (C-17's?)

Roll it into a ball and there you go...

Slim

 

[Jungle]

Curious though Jungle are you advocating replacing the 3 Bns in the other Bdes   or going with a 2x Mech Inf Bn 1x Armd Regt org? If we do have a third Bn in the CMBGs, and I think we need them (or at the very least a designated trained and equipped 3rd Militia "roundout" Bn), what would the designation be? Are we going to see 4th PPCLI, 4th RCR and 4th R22Re as regular force units?

Yes, I am advocating standing up 3 new Battalions for the Brigades. Now what they would be named, 4th RCR / PPCLI / R22eR... or activate ResF units to RegF status... or create a completely new Regt... I don't care much. I am not a big fan of the Regt'l system we are using now, and I could live with a new, "modernized" version of it.

 

[Infanteer]

An understrength brigade formation with its own logistics, communications kit and air support. People could be posted in and out just like any other normal command. You could even say it is expanding on the idea of the DART teams of the early 90's. The JSS (if we ever get them) should fit into this org rather nicely.

I don't know if I like that idea.  One of the most important aspects of a "high-speed, low-drag" Light Infantry unit would be cohesion.  If you were to turn the unit into a "revolving door", you'd have high turbulence due to pers coming in and going out.  I feel the Brigade would be better suited by acting as a regimental family, just as the current units within the CMBG's operate.  A member would be part of the Regiment for the duration of his career and would not bring "baggage" from other regiments.

(As an aside, I know the Airborne Regiment operated as a "tasking" for line regiments.  How do you guys who served in the Regiment feel about this?)

Now what they would be named, 4th RCR / PPCLI / R22eR... or activate ResF units to RegF status... or create a completely new Regt... I don't care much. I am not a big fan of the Regt'l system we are using now, and I could live with a new, "modernized" version of it.

Totally agree.  If this was to be done, a totally new regiment would have to be created or one brought up from the Reserve Force.  By making it composed of other regiments or giving the tasking to one or another, you are just asking for politicking, regimental infighting, and unneeded friction (WHY THE HELL DO THE FRENCH/WEST/ROYALS/INUIT/RUSSIANS GET THAT AND WE DON'T!!!!).  Something we don't need.

 

[Slim]

I don't know if I like that idea.  One of the most important aspects of a "high-speed, low-drag" Light Infantry unit would be cohesion.  If you were to turn the unit into a "revolving door", you'd have high turbulence due to pers coming in and going out.  I feel the Brigade would be better suited by acting as a regimental family, just as the current units within the CMBG's operate.

Sorry all

I didn't explain myself very well. What I meant to say was that, like the American JSOC, you would post people in and out of this command the same way. The nucleus of the unit would be built around a regimental formation with the same unit cohesiveness that the current ones have. It would just have the goodies to be able to deploy and be self-sustaining in any theatre of operations.

Heck, you could even include the JTF as part of the orbat and have the units train to support them so That, in time of need, they could form into a well-oiled ball and proceed to roll with whatever mission has been tasked to them.

I am picturing a lightfighter brigade built around a regt. that can deploy QUICKLY to a theatre with the required assets already in place to hit the ground running.

Slim

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Martin eyes 8,000 new troops

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, SUN OTTAWA BUREAU

NEW YORK -- Prime Minister Paul Martin will follow through on an election promise next month to hire 8,000 more soldiers, senior government officials say. The Liberal minority government will lay out its plan to hire 5,000 soldiers to man a new peacekeeping brigade and 3,000 reservists in next month's throne speech, a federal official said yesterday.

"That will be on top of the current commitment" to boost the size of the reserves to 18,500 by 2005, another official said.

The reserves now stand at about 15,500, not including those working full-time in positions with the regular Forces, due to a bogged-down recruiting system.

The Forces has about 52,000 soldiers.

Conservative MP Gordon O'Connor criticized the creation of the peacekeeping brigade, calling for the Liberals to fill empty positions across Canada with the 5,000 new soldiers who are pegged for the Forces.

O'Connor said the decision to train those soldiers solely for peacekeeping missions means they won't be able to perform any other jobs.

"They've got to be combat trained," he said. "When you have military forces, you've got to be able to do more than one thing."

O'Connor said the Liberals will have to boost the cash-strapped military's budget by at least $400 million annually to pay the 5,000 full-time soldiers, and by more than $1 billion for their equipment.

Recent reports warn that without a budget hike, the Canadian Forces will have to mothball the navy's destroyers and half of their fighter jets to pay for the new hires.

Canadian Defence Association spokesman Peter Forsberg also criticized the Liberals for limiting the new brigade to a peacekeeping role.

"We cannot imagine where nor when this 5,000 peacekeeping brigade will be deployed," Forsberg said.

???
<a href=http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2004/09/23/pf-640206.html>LINK HERE</a>

 

[ackland]

I for one am scared of this concept. A PEace Keeping Brigade? How rediculous is that? I would like ot think the Generals are just going along wiht this till they get the money and then turn around and take that brigade and turn it in to some thing useable.

I don't see the esprit de corp of these troops being very high. As has been discussed the army could use more not less morale. I think that this group might have a whole wack of problems. That's just MHO

 

[48Highlander]

this has to be a joke....

even Paul Martin can't be THAT stupid....

right?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I find this all rather amusing, particularly in light of the very difficult decisions that have been made over the last 3 or 4 years to "cash in PYs" to pay for Army Transformation (which, BTW, I agree with, which makes me something of a heretic in most parts).   Where is the infrastructure?   Given that the buys for all major eqpt fleets are basically locked in, where we will we get the eqpt from?   Given that the single largest shortfall in the Army right now is comms eqpt, where will that come from?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

They'll get the kit from across the CF no doubt and make those units even less effective.

 

[dglad]

I think we need more info.  The term "peacekeeping" is pretty loose these days since, as we all know, "peacekeepers" are really trained combat soldiers hanging out on one of Krulak's three blocks.  The government isn't likely to say "Martin Announces New High Intensity Combat Brigade", if only because that would push him into the territory claimed by the Conservatives in their military messaging in the election.  I'd even go so far as to suggest that the real deal here is to simply get more soldiers on-line so we can keep doing more of what we're doing now.  The military has become Canada's primary foreign policy instrument, as putting soldiers on the table gives us at least something of a voice.  It's also something that the government can hold up to the US as an immediatte increase in defence capability (since one can, in theory, at least, get soldiers trained and ready to deploy FAR faster than our procurement system could get us, say, new aircraft or ships).  And I doubt that we'll have a whole new Bde stood up, as much as we'll start trying to establish the capability in our existing Bdes to deploy.

So it's not the "peacekeeper" terminology that has me concerned.  For me, the much greater worry is as indicated above--will we have the resources to adequately train, house and equip these new soldiers?  And if there is a term in this that catches me, it's the word "Brigade". Is this a signal that we're actually going to try to develop a standing, deployable capability at Bde level?  Will we actually have the wherewithal to even TRAIN at a Bde level?  We rarely do UNIT level trg anymore, much less trg at a formation level.  Getting the 8000 new soldiers might be the easy part--being able to deploy, employ and sustain them in anything more than sub-units grouped into op-specific, unit-sized Task Forces will be the real challenge here, I think.