PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[Navalsnpr]

Definitely agree with 2 Cdo.

Personnel in the Military are adults and should act as such.

I've seen instances where multiple courses work evenings (1600-2359) for whatever reasons. Anyway, one course who only had been loaded with 2 candidates were getting off a bit early, whereas this one class had to stay the entire time. It had a full course load. The candidates from the full course load had actually wrote in the course critique that they were being treated un-fairly compared to the other class.

Excuse me but you are getting paid by the crown and are in the Military. Suck it up and work when you are told to and for as long as you are told to.

Lets bring the discipline back into the Military!!

 

[mseoptrucker]

Excuse me but you are getting paid by the crown and are in the Military. Suck it up and work when you are told to and for as long as you are told to.

Lets bring the discipline back into the Military!!


      This is a bit off topic but a good point. Anyway the topic is weather you think there needs to be change in the PER systeam
  and don't get me wrong there are good pointsabout the systeam as pointed out by booya mcnasty.I cant remember where I heard it but someone once told me that genus can be manifested in more then what you are able to learn from a book. I too believe that  there are strengths in everyone.  The trouble with our systeam is you have to show strengths everywhere to advance and thats just not realistic.It is very few the number who really master everything  on a PER, a hell of a lot less then are credited for it .And those who are granted higher marks then they deserve are granted those Marks based on what?  some higher ups opinion.
      Our Sgts and Wos and Mwos hold way too much power to decide who gets what in the military and are not necessarily obligated to demonstrait equitable use of that power.They don't really have to answer to anyone as to why they want this or that person to advance or not to advance and the the redress systeam we have as our only recourse is lacking as well.
      Due to the amount of discussion on my topic,I Would say there is more then just me that feels as I do .There is no systeam that is too perfact to be improved upon . But there are always those who say leave it alone.  Change is not always easy but the military has to evolve as the rest of society does. I believe it is trying, and is going through growwing pains but there are some things that need attention more so then others. I think moral is one.
    One way to build moral is to reward hard work and not be afraid to pat someone on the back for a job well done
another way would be to make the evaluation systeam less a competition and more of a performance based and aptitude tested experienced  based systeam. where people are given a chance to be tested on their ability to function at the next level.

 

[Navalsnpr]

I've been an Officer before in the Reserves and am now a Snr NCO in the Navy RegF.

First of all, the current PER system is definitely a lot better than the older system that was in place.

In the Navy, Supervisors are required to keep Divisional Notes on their subordinates. Those notes go to the CO for monitoring on a regular basis, and as a supervisor, there should be an entry in the book at least every 2 weeks. This will give the supervisor written substantiation for a PER. As a subordinate, it is advised that you keep your own "I love me" book and if the PER doesn't match how you think you have performed, re-dress it.

One way to build moral is to reward hard work and not be afraid to pat someone on the back for a job well done

There are many leadership styles and as we all know the situation dictates the style. I've seen someone get a pat on the back weeks or months after an event.

 

[mseoptrucker]

    there are safe guards everywhere and as maney are created there are also ways to circumvent them and i am in agreement that the systeam is better now then before but it is fair enough to insure that everyone that should be promoted gets promoted and those that shoulden't  it will never be perfact but it is still based on the old systeam why not try a new approach im a trucker and ill explain it like this as everyone seems rto compair the military to civi street . an mdo  civi dvr for the military van have differant levels how does an mdo2 go from a 2 to a 3 then to a 4 thus improving his pay and status (he writes a test and is scored on that test )if he scores well enough and has the experience he advances .Im not saying this be the only way to evaluate a member but it should be part of it

 

[Navalsnpr]

mseoptrucker,

The only way that would work is if a rank/position opens up, then it gets put to a competition. Interested parties would apply and then a competition would be held. The winner would then get the promotion or position that was sought.

This would be similar to the way the Americans run, from what I understand.

 

[mseoptrucker]

  I don't believe it should be the only means to determin if someone is qualified . For sure he has to show the physical ability and also that he can garner enough respect to be an effective leader. But there has to be automatic opportunity to show ones ability along with a test.
  And its the same in the military when a promotion to Sgt is given that opens up a Mcpl position witch is filled from the top of the Merritt list.  Its not so differant except that sometimes the people on top of that list haven't really shown that they are really Superior to the 2 guy

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Telling someone they are lacking, leaves you open to being labled a harasser. a racists or a sexist in many cases. Eventhough you may be cleared of these charges through the proper investigation of the accusation, you will never be in the eyes of all,be totally Innocent. Its a cover your *** ideal that was established during the witch hunt for Somalia culprits, and even the upper ranks were passing the buck .
        Fast forward to 2005 no one wants to take the chance.

Got to disagree with you.   While I suppose it is possible to at least level a harassment charge against someone who tells you something that you don't want to hear, I protected myself against anything sticking to me by following the PDR process, keeping good notes and by keeping my subordinates up to date with what I thought of their performance.   Before I debriefed them on their performance, I thought pretty hard about any biases that I may have injected (inadvertantly) into the process.   I never worried about getting hit with a harassment complaint- I worried about not getting my job done or someone getting hurt because standards weren't maintained.   If one of my subordinates doesn't like my approach, I am available to discuss it with them, but I will not hide substandard performance from them.   If that makes me a bad guy, so what.   It is not a popularity contest (I learned that the hard way as a 2LT)

In theory, the practise of 360 review sounds good, but what happens to leaders who show up at a place where standards have not been maintained (it happens) and begins to clean house? Or this leader has to impliment a really unpopular set of orders he has been given by his boss?   Does he/she get turfed because his subordinates don't like what is happening?   Not saying we should not investigate it's utility, but we should be careful.   On another note, way back in the mists of time (1980s) we used to do peer assessments at Military College.   I'm a fan of this forming a part of every PER score (basically, everyone in the unit who is the same rank as you gets a crack at your performance).   It was scary how accurately we could rate each other.  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I'm going to wade in here with an opinion from someone who's been doing the same civy job since 89. I think a lot of the problem in the military is that the "system" [for lack of a better term] seems to look down on those who are quite happy and good at doing what they do at the level they are at. There always seems to be this "thought process" that people work hard to get promoted, which is not always the case, I don't think enough attention is paid to the fact that someone works hard because he/she likes what they are doing for the pay they are getting and promotion would only jeopardize that.
Maybe do like the civil service and hold "competitions", take those who would be in the running one particular year for promotion and have them "apply" [if interested] and then hold the "competition" consisting of interviews, written tests, etc. This way if someone is in their "happy place" at this point in time of their career, they just need not apply and someone who would be into it right now could be promoted.
The other candidate's circumstances may change next time and he/she would be ready and conceivably then make a better leader.

 

[Highland Lad]

It seems to me that too many "career corporals" are not happy with their lot in life. I can't speak to the current PER system, but some points raised here seem fair - some form of 360 ° review would help (I have received Pers Assessments that disagreed wildly about my ability to perform, and seen them consistent by writer, rather than by task or assignment), as would some form of formalized competition (I've seen guys who didn't want to be promoted to Sgt - one who didn't want the added potential responsibility and one who felt he wasn't ready - guess who turned out the better Sgt in the long run?)

As to the point of only having 4 incentive levels - What's wrong with that? It discourages "coasting" for career corporals - If an individual finds themselves 'trapped' in rank, there is some financial incentive to look at what they really want from a military career, and to put up or shut up. The CF cannot afford to see the Peter Principle in action over and over again. If pay is the issue, it's time to look over at civvy street.

I'm not pointing any fingers or making accusations - I don't know anyone's individual situation, nor do I want to (unless you work for me).

 

[2 Cdo]

I personally don't have a problem with "career corporals", not everyone can be a leader. Some of the smartest troops I've known over the years have been Cpl's with 15-20 years in. They know their job and they are happy with their load station. As for NCO's or officers that "show bias" I agree that it is wrong, but everyone is guilty of it to one degree or another.
A good NCO or officer has to work at overcoming his own bias and try to score people accordingly. I've been very fortunate in my career to have worked for NCO's that were honest and didn't promise things that they couldn't deliver. Sorry mseoptrucker maybe you just had the bad luck of working for weak NCO's, I don't know. The PER system is not perfect but no system ever is, someone will always complain about something.

 

[Armymedic]

I personally don't have a problem with "career corporals", not everyone can be a leader. Some of the smartest troops I've known over the years have been Cpl's with 15-20 years in. They know their job and they are happy with their load station.

I agree.
One of the best Cpls I had the privledge to work with, knew his stuff inside and out, but he couldn't lead a kid to a candy store. He wanted to advance but he was dismal when it came to motivating others and supervision, and unfortunately he knew it as well...If you can't develop those traits, you can not be a MCpl or above in the CF.

 

[Highland Lad]

100% agreement here.

I used "career corporals" as an example to look at the 4 incentive levels as a means of examining career progression. If your career has stalled and you want more out of it, it's either time to put out more effort or to look elsewhere. If your career has taken you as far as you want to go, good for you, so long as the job is what you want and you do it well.

I agree that a long-term Corporal can be a great help for junior NCOs, and if someone is promoted into a leadership role that they don't want or can't perform in, you only hurt the CF by forcing them into it (both by losing a good corporal and by gaining an ineffective MCpl, in this example).

Part of any promotion is assessing how well an individual can perform at the next level, and this is a lot easier in some trades than others (in the infantry, for example, on exercise a Pl Comd can point at a sec Comd and say "bang! you're a casualty. Take over, 2 i/c."), and this can be an issue for some candidates for promotion.

My 2 ¢ - The PER system ain't broke, but could use some tinkering, and honesty and objectivity are the best tools any leader can use when assessing a subordinate.

 

[CH1]

I AM CURIOUS AS TO YOUR POSITION.  I TAKE IT YOU ARE STILL A GRUNT AFTER 17 YEARS.  MY CAREER HAS BEEN RIDDLED WITH "ERRORS IN JUDGEMENT" ON MY PART.  THE ONE THING THAT HAS GOTTEN ME THROUGH MORE THAN DOUBLE YOUR TIME, WAS THE SIMPLE FACT I KNOW & DO MY JOB WELL & AT SIGNIFICANTLY ABOVE AVERAGE.  IF I WOULD HAVE HAD TO DEPEND ON THE BUDDY SYSTEM I WOULD NEVER HAVE HAVE MADE IT PAST BOOT CAMP.  IT IS TRUE THAT I HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE WW II & KOREAN VETS WATCHING OVER  SO AS NOT TO STRAY BEYOND THE POINT OF NO RETURN.  NOW I HAVE BEEN AN OFFICER LONGER THAN I WAS IN THE RANKS.  I GUESS MY QUESTION TURNS TO CONFIDENCE AND WHY YOU DID NOT QUESTION THE OLD MAN AS TO WHY YOU WERE CONSISTENTLY BYPASSED.  I HAVE SEEN THE TIMES WHEN IT TOOK 10 YEARS TO MAKE LANCE JACK THEN TO THE POINT WHERE M/CPL's WERE COOKIE CUTTER.  THEY MADE M/CPL's FOR A TIME IF THEY MADE 6 MONTHS PAST BMT.  NO DISRESPECT INTENDED BUT I WOULD LOOK TO YOUR SELF CONFIDENCE AND BASIC CHARACTER.  MAYBE YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORNS, AND REQUEST A SPOT ON THE APPROPRIATE COURSE, JR/SNR NCO, WHATEVER THE CASE.  LOOSE THE BITTERNESS AND TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SELF.  WISH I HAD THE CHANCE TO DO IT AGAIN, BUT MY TIME IS ALMOST GONE WITH CRA WITHIN HANDS REACH.

.................GOOD LUCK & GOOD HUNTING

 

[Armymedic]

CH1,
good post with the exception of,

ALL CAPITALS  IS CONSIDERED shouting...

on the left side of your keyboard, third button up is a key called "Caps Lock", generally when it is pushed repeatedly a little light on your keyboard will light up...

Next time you post, please ensure that little light is off.

thanks.

 

[CH1]

Thanks, getting the sit rep clearly.  major learning curve.  too used to writing reports for mother hen down east.  Seems they cant get coke bottles big enough in ottawa!

 

[mseoptrucker]

I can add that Ii don't think I would be a Career Coporal if I had  idea of staying in the Military. As was suggested I did see my superiors about the stagnation of my career and as a result I have been put into a advancement position. The trouble I have is that I had to go and make my career intentions known. It was suggested to me that my bosses thought I was happy where I was and that the fact that I always worked hard and produced results where ever I was put showed that I didn't want to leave the floor if you will. i find this a cop out .I just believe I was, for want of a better word forgoten .I'm not looking for sympathy here I'm just highlighting what I believe to be a problem. I am one of maybe 2 or 3 English people in a French unit I don't believe as was suggested to me that my Superior didn't think I wanted to advance to the next rank. But I will give credit that after I approached them about it I was given my opportunity and I am making the best of it .However had it been the case that they thought I didn't want to advance shouldn't have someone approached and asked my intention I mean I'm not the type to blow my own horn at work.I work hard and wait till that speaks for me. Maybe thats my downfall but I think if you have to tell your boss that you are a hard worker and that your working hard to advance then maybe he isn't doing his job. I have been deserving of the position I have but I had to ask for it and wasn't asked if I was intrested in taking it and my first evaluation in that position is exemplary.I just think its too late.
        I  am frustrated after working for so long for nothing I am feeling too old and my body is not keeping up with it all. I don't think I will last any more then the 20 years I have too which is over in less then 4 years .
        a cpls time in the Field is harder on the body then a WO or a Mwos time, not taking away from what they do,  It is a required and they have usually done their time in the sh__ as well. Its just that at a certain age some of us won't be able to keep going due to bad aging, injuries ect ect. That is the time to get out.I think 40 years old is too old, for me anyway, to be still working at a Cpls level, after allready doing it for the better part of my career.
        That being said I would suggest that had I not been passed bye I may have been in a position more suitable for me by now. I'm not saying Wo or Mwo, Just with a bit more choice in my career.If it were due to what my superiors thoughts about what my career intentions were then the change I have suggested in my messages would dispel any doubt as to the intentions of a member. If someone didn't want to advance he wouldn't want to take part in any type of advancement evaluation testing.
        It should be a members right to prove he or she can advance and not left it up to someones personal opinion I can be the best worker there is but if at one time in my career I pissed off the boss I can be held back.There is measures to prevent this but none are infallible and are subject to abuse. Anyone that says" there has never been someone deserving held back" is dreaming.It happens more then we like to admit.Like wise there is promoting going on that shouldn't be and the type of systeam I have suggested may go a long way in preventing such abuse.Not for me but others.

 

[Highland Lad]

I would have to say that one of the criteria that gets a lot of notice come promotion time is whether an individual is "seeking out and accepting increased responsibility" - in other words, no-one gets shot down for asking about promotion (unless it's the new pte asking about his chances at taking over the sec or Pl... I've actually seen that happen). IMHO, it's easier for commanders at any level to accept the status quo than to go out and look for promotable soldiers. That being said, the best officers don't typically accept that the easy way is the best way.

Congrats on being given the opportunity, and good luck with it!

 

[tomahawk6]

I imagine promotion in the CF is limited by vacancy ? If so the government could help morale by providing yearly pay increases and provide some type of housing allowance for enlisted/NCO's so housing costs wont have to come out of the monthly paycheck.

 

[pbi]

Tomahawk 6: We are actually already fairly well paid in absolute dollar terms, with an annual "incentive" increase for each year in rank, and an annual "cost of living" increase.

Our military housing is handled differently from yours: we pay for our MQs, the rate graduated depending on our rank-junior ranks paying less for the same type of house. Although, unlike your Army, with very, very few exceptions there are no longer any "officer houses"-houses are usually allocated based on family size not on rank.

Depending on the average housing costs in the area we are stationed in, we can receive an Accomodation Assistance Allowance that can range from around 40 dollars/month to around 1,000/month. However, as only about 20% of our Regular Force actually lives in military housing, it really isn't a huge issue for the Govt or the military to do more about it. In the long run, the Dept intends to get completely out of the housing business altogether except for very isolated posts, of which we have only a tiny handful left.

Cheers.

 

[tomahawk6]

Thanks for the clarification.