Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)

[George Wallace]

A couple of points of protocol I've always been a little unsure of.

1) Suppose an officer with head-dress on passes by an NCM without head-dress. The NCM checks his arms to pay a complement. Should the officer return the compliment with a salute, or should he simply check his arms back (he has a head-dress on, but he wasn't actually saluted).

Yes, the officer should return the compliment with a salute.

2) Suppose an officer joining a new unit introduces himself (or herself) to an NCM working at his unit (say a clerk). Is it appropriate for the officer to shake the NCM's hand when the introduction is made?

In most circumstances it may be the courteous thing to do.

3) When an NCM salutes an officer, is it appropraite for the officer to say "thank you"? Really the NCM was just following protocol and saluting the commission, so I am inclined to think that thanks are not appropriate, but I know some officers who do say "thank you". Comments?

Subtleties like this aren't really taught at BMQ or BOTP.

Again, a courtesy would be nice......Usually both would use a courtesy, such as "Good Day, Sir"...."Good day,_______"

GW

 

[Inch]

GW already answered the first question.

For the second one, there is nothing wrong with shaking  hands, I always shake hands with someone the first time I meet them, be it the CO, XO, Chief Clerk or a one hook apprentice technician.

Third, for saluting, I usually use a compliment, Good Morning, Good Afternoon, Good Evening, whatever the case may be if I don't know the individual, if I do, then I'll say "Good Morning Jim", (first name since I'm Air Force and that's how we operate  ). I'd have to say that salutes are pretty rare where I work since most of the people I meet are on the hangar floor or on the flight line and headdress is no-no in those locales.  Sometimes you're just thinking about something else or they catch you by surprise and all you can manage to say is Thank you. I don't think it's a sign of disrespect or anything like that, there's usually more factors in play than what meets the eye.

Don't sweat it, just watch the guys that have been around for a while and mimic them until you get a feel for it.

 

[tomahawk6]

As far as a handshake I think that would be initiated by the senior man. If none is offered then the junior shouldnt initate.

 

[Armymedic]

I concur with all above.

Remember, as an officer extending courtesy will always ensure people see you in a positive light.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

The checking arms thing seems to be a myth (or perhaps an old custom) as it is not mentioned in the drill manual, ch 1, s 2.

15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress,
compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If
on the march, arms shall be swung and the head
turned to the left or right as required.

18. When dressed in civilian clothes, all
members shall stand at attention and male members
(less Sikhs) shall remove headdress, on any
occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform
and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the
march, the headdress is raised or removed, if
applicable, and the head turned right or left. When
headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head
as required and offer a polite greeting.

I.e. just like civilians are supposed to do (but don't as it seems we need strict rules to continue formalities in society).   The checking arms is a compliment to be paid while at the double, as far as I know.

I've two questions of my own, though:

1: para 13. of chapter, section 2 reads as follows:

13. Individual compliments to a formed military
group on the march and under the command of an
officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the
group and saluting. The salute should be maintained
until the entire group has passed.

Does this mean, for example, that I would halt, turn, & salute a group being marched around base by a commissioned officer?   Or would this only apply to a squad of commissioned officers (e.g. a supernumerary division)?   I've never seen this done save on the march past & that is already covered in the manual (not to mention that the gp salutes the Reviewing officer 1st.   Certainly I've saluted officers marching formed military groups around--but only in the same manner as if they were alone.

Second question: para 28, part d reads as follows:

28. d. anthems are not sung when played as part of
a salute, or on a parade other than a church
parade (remembrance or commemorative
service/ceremony). If ordered to sing on a
drumhead or remembrance ceremony, the
parade will be brought to attention and all will
join in the singing of the National Anthem,
officers do not salute.

Does this mean that one does not sing God save the Queen & O Canada only during the Royal salute/vice-regal salute?  Or does one not sing O Canada also when the flag is hoisted/lowered & a band is playing (because you are saluting but it's not the same sort of salute as the royal & viceregal salutes.

 

[Armageddon]

Paying respects as you would if it were just the one officer is generally acceptable as I have never heard anything nor have I ever seen/done anything to the contrary.

 

[George Wallace]

Sailing Instructor

You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."  This after you made this comment:

The checking arms thing seems to be a myth (or perhaps an old custom) as it is not mentioned in the drill manual, ch 1, s 2.

May I ask you how you come to attention?

Most people I know come to attention by bringing their heels together, with their feet at approx a 45 degree angle and "checking their arms" to their sides......

GW

 

[pbi]

I agree fully with all of George W's original post.

However, on the issue of officers saying "thank you" in response to a salute or the paying of complements from subordinates, I have to side with our former Area Comd, (then) BGen Fenton, who was much opposed to this practice. His point was that even in civilian clothes there are correct ways to acknowledge complements, and saying "thank you" is not one of them. What are you thanking the subordinate for? The salute is not for you: it is for your commission. You have no actual business thanking them for anything. Thanking a person for saluting HM commission is presumptious (although rather common). IMHO, if you feel compelled to say something, try "Good Day" or "Carry on" or something else, but not "thank you".

Cheers.

 

[Scott]

OK, to throw a bit of a wrench in the gears - To you Officers...

You are out and about, on foot, and are approached by an NCM, you can tell he's trying to spot your rank and is getting a bit apprehensive, would you initiate contact with something like "Lovely Morning, isn't it?" or "How do you like this weather?"

I have always found that the more "seasoned" Officers used to give us this little hint. Is this something you consider a practice or was I just dreaming it all? Having said this I only ever observed this happening in Gagetown, Greenwood and Shearwater, the latter two being air bases.

Inch's comments struck a chord, I once had to escort a buddy to Greenwood to see the Dentist and was very surprised to be asked my first name by a Colonel and then have him shake my hand and give me his! Upon the standard, "Nice to meet you, Sir" I got back a big grin and, "No, it's Mike!" Took me a while to get used to that. Good thing I was thinking when I got back to Aldershot, it would have been a good one to see the Duty Officer's face when I called out, "Back with your man, Dave!!" I'm sure someone would have gotten a laugh out of it.

Sorry for the small hijack.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

For me I think its just good manners for an officer to say thank you or at least acknowledge your paying compliments other then a grunt which is what I get half the time.

 

[Meridian]

I suppose, PBI, the counter-argument is that you are thanking the member for respecting the commission.. As a representative of it, surely you are aloud to thank someone on behalf of it for respecting it?

If a foreigner is going on and on about how they love Canada, and how nice all "you  people are".. good manners would suggest saying something like "Thank you". While you  are not "all of canada", you do represent Canadians in the situation, and thus, thank you is warranted.

Just another p-o-v I guess...

 

[Edward Campbell]

Ivan Fenton passed on the wisdom which he learned about 30 years ago ... people who learned it 60 years ago passed it on to him, and they, in their turn, learned it from people who did their soldiering about 90 years ago, and so on.

 

[P Kaye]

Another twist:

Two officers walking down a hallway, one behind the other.  A Lt in front, and a 2Lt a few paces behind.  They pass some troops, who salute.  The Lt in front returns the salute.  What does the 2Lt behind do?  I don't think he should also return the salute (should he?), but should he check is arms, or do anything at all?

 

[Meridian]

I was told you check your arms.. Just as you do if there are three Captains walking together, they dont all salute, one will (usually the leading one, or hte one closest to the group) and the others will check.

But I could be entirely wrong.Just what I was taught and what I observed.

 

[Sandbag]

Sailing Instructor, no you do not sing during the Royal or Vice-Regal Salute.  My background on this is based upon three years as an HADC to LGov of Manitoba.  Regarding the Vice-Regal, this is practical as well as customary because near of the two anthems are completely played.  On many occasions I have seen the consternation of many civilian dignitaries when "all of sudden the music stops".

Regarding who salutes in the hallway, or whenever a group of officers are moving from one place to another, it should be the senior person return the compliments.  This seniority is determined by rank, position, commissioning date.

 

[George Wallace]

Depending on the spacing, he may return the salute also.  He should, if close to the other officer, do as he would in a group;  the senior salutes and the junior(s) come to attention cutting their arms smartly to their sides.

GW

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Sailing Instructor

You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."  This after you made this comment:
May I ask you how you come to attention?

Pardon my ambiguity in quoting the drill manual. I was commenting that checking the arms while on the march was not within the manual (& now that I've checked more thoroughly, it's not while double-marching either).  This would also suggest that when the sr officer returns the salute, other officers do not check their arms.  Perhaps verbally greeting the saluter would be good?

It seems to me that, as much as one salutes the commission not the individual, the exercise of saluting is extremely interpersonal.  One could justify saluting the individual officer by saying that he's earned the commission, so any respect contained within that commission is therefore transferred to him.  No?

Regarding the anthem-playing/singing: so I don't sing during the regal/viceregal salutes, but do I when the flag is hoisted & a band plays O Canada?  I did in sea cadets but that does not justify the practice, unfortunately.

 

[Marauder]

Mr. Kaye, I don't think you should go so far as to thank your troops for doing something we do to pay our respect to the commisson you have earned. However, it is nice when an officer will acknowledge your existence beyond returning the high five. If Bloggins gives a "Good evening, Sir" while passing by and saluting, it's nice if you, as an officer, give a little something back while returning the salute, like "good evening, Bloggins" as he passes by. Nothing huge, but it's a good way to show the troops you're paying attention and care enough to ackowledge them.

And the whole Air Force first name thing would drive me buggy. The mini-MCPL (RCR type, of course) that rides shotgun in my head while in uniform would bitch slap me if I ever tried that. LMAO

 

[Meridian]

Well if the troop says something to you, I can't imagine the officer not saying something equivalent back!

IMHO, that would be tantamount to the OFFICER disrespecting the commission.

 

[PeterLT]

Salute, or not to salute......that is the question.

I used to tell my troops that if they are in a situation where they are in doubt what is the proper thing to do, then salute. Better to be a bit embarrassed at saluting a Corporal, then not to salute an Officer. I would imagine that rule could also apply to the 2nd Lt following someone of higher rank. Better to be thought a bit overzealous due to inexperience by the troops (they will forgive). If the senior Officer has an issue with it, they can sort it out in private.

As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.

Peter