Paid Physical Fitness Time?

[MJP]

It's not 'off topic', its PD.  If "most" people mean it, then "most" people are wrong. 

Fact.  WOs are not NCOs.  Therefore they cannot be Senior NCOs.  Unless, of course, you are willing to argue that the QR & Os are incorrect.

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

I guess NCOs can start referring to Capt's as subordinate officers then, as long as "most" of us do it, then it's cool.  8)

Le sigh......whatever floats your boat dude.  Something something....not a hill to die on.

 

[Monsoon]

Have you considered asking for 5 minutes of your immediate superiors time, and discussing the CDS Guidance to COs excerpt along with the relevant DAOD?  If you get the "pt on your own time"  you can point out that, unless they somehow outrank the CDS, the direction is pretty clear and it doesn't appear they have the authority to disregard orders.

I think you would find that if you submitted a grievance on the basis of the CDS Guidance to Commanding Officers, you'd find that COs continue to have wide latitude in implementing the many and conflicting directions and priorities set for their units. The specific implementation of that guidance is something that's very much between the CDS and a CO (through the CO's CoC, natch); what it isn't is a policy that exists for the purposes of unit members wishing to assert what they regard as personal entitlements.

But, hey - you know what's not defined in DAODs or anywhere else? A definition of what "your own time" constitutes. Maybe if we push our luck we can all look forward to some 0630am PT ahead of of nice, full work day that doesn't end until 1630. Satisfies DAODs and the CDS Guidance - everyone's a winner! Right?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

2203.5 These fundamental concepts are supported by the following selection of fitness guidelines to establishing a culture of fitness:
a. It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied. As Commanding Officers you will be in a
position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.
b. Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
c. Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.

Is that not clear enough?  Where is it people think all this 'leeway' actually exists?

I have had personal experience with both the DGCFGA folks and the MGERC and based on my experience with both, I believe (if properly written) a grievance submitted by a CF mbr for PT time that is included in the normal unit publish 'duty/work hours' that was rejected would have a very reasonable chance of success.  If it is such a big deal across the entire CF, then it could possible go to the Systemic Issues side of the house which would likely result in 'eyes on' by the CDS; perhaps then he'd remove this 'leeway' people are injecting into the current policy.   

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But, hey - you know what's not defined in DAODs or anywhere else? A definition of what "your own time" constitutes. Maybe if we push our luck we can all look forward to some 0630am PT ahead of of nice, full work day that doesn't end until 1630. Satisfies DAODs and the CDS Guidance - everyone's a winner! Right?

Not at my unit;  we already have CO directed, PSP-lead PT twice a week from 1430-1530.  On the other days, we have a 'community' PSP-lead PT class that all are free to attend, but it is not mandatory like the CO directed ones are. 

One of the benefits of having a CO who follows the letter and spirit of the multiple 'conflicting' policies you mention above. 

I think any reasonable adult would come to the conclusion that 'on your own time' means outside  your work routine/normal duty(working) hours.  There is no definition of what "air" is in any CF policy but I think most people know what it is.  Does the CDS have to spell things out to CAF mbrs like they are Day 1 Kindergarten students?  Are we that far gone?

 

[Monsoon]

"Seek out every opportunity". Yeah, sounds like the COs' hands are really tied there.  :

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think any reasonable adult would come to the conclusion that 'on your own time' means outside  your work routine/normal duty(working) hours.

And that's the rub for the Navy.

Don't get us wrong, I think everyone in the RCN is onboard with the CDS concept that we must make good health and fitness part of our culture. It is the "letter and intent" that it should be done during "normal" working hours and prefreably in group that doesn't work for us. And I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only.

Lets start with being at sea: The normal work routine/duty hours are 24/7, with the crew usually standing one in two watches (half crew on half off at any moment). Am I to, say, take some of my ops room console operators in the middle of their "shift" to send them off to exercise on the treadmills, or half of my engineers manning the MCR at that time? Of course not. What about when they are "off-watch"? Well, first, in the short off watch (5 hours), they will have a meal, carry out essential equipment maintenance, carry out essential evolutions (replenish ship at sea for food, parts or fuel, etc.) and some other duties like cleaning stations*. That leaves the long "off-watch" (7 hours) but by your definition, that would be "on their own time".

What about in harbour? Well, first of all, we have short spells in harbour. During those spells, a ton of maintenance and repairs have to be done. They are done by civilian dockyard workers and contractors, together with Navy technician from the various Fleet maintenance units. Now, if my shipboard technicians (which is about 80% of the ship's company BTW) are not present, the contractors and dockyard mates cannot do their work. And since all the work has to be done for the ship to next sail on time, I cannot spare the techs for fitness during what you would consider "normal hours". If I did, the technician, the dockyard mates and civilian contractors would have to work outside their normal working hours to complete the work, and that would entail (for the dockyard mates and civilian contractors) a lot of expensive overtime to pay from the Navy budget.

If the ships cannot sail on time or as required, I can tell you that there would be no consequences for the CDS issuing the policy, but there would certainly be consequences for the poor CO who's ship didn't sail as ordered, or the Task group commander of that ship, or even possibly for the Admiral.

So which question do you think the Admiral would rather answer as follows to the CDS?

scenario one: CDS: Why are your ships unable to sail on time? Admiral: Because I have very fit personnel, Sir.

or

scenario two: CDS: Why are your sailors not fit, contrary to my policy? Admiral: Because my ships can sail whenever ordered, Sir.


*: I know that many people resent cleaning stations and that many think it would be a good time to do something else. But in my book, they are essential. Anyone who has seen illness spread through the confines of  a ship knows that keeping the ship clean has as much if not more to do with the health of the crew than PT.

P.s.: The order of priority for work in harbour is, first, to make sure the main systems are fully functional, then that for each main system, that the primary back-up system works, then that the secondary back-up systems are functional, and then, for those system that have a tertiary back-up, that those also work. Currently, the Navy is NOT meeting this workload even by dedicating all normal working hours to it in harbour. Few ships, if any, sail with all their back-up systems functional. Most of the time there is only one back-up system available should something happen at sea. For some main systems, we are often sailing without any back-up and rely on the engineers inventiveness and resourcefulness if something happens.
 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

"Seek out every opportunity". Yeah, sounds like the COs' hands are really tied there.  :

But you're being selective and looking at the steak not the peas.  My interpretation of that part is 'make it happen where/when you can'.  As I've mentioned, my CO is managing to make it happen with a very busy flying squadron that has members constantly out the door for short/long term trips and a busy flying program including a long-term deployed op.  It can and is being done.  Why?  I'll suggest because that CO is looking for opportunities, not excuses.

Here's some steak to counter your peas though  ;D : 

- It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied. As Commanding Officers you will be in a position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.

- Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated


But by all means, go on.  I for one enjoy seeing Jr and Snr Officers trying to explain on a public forum why they think "guidance" from the Chief of Defence Staff is inconsequential.  By the way, if you are not too busy, can you take the time to jot down and share with the entire forum the policies, regulations, orders etc that are issued that we can ignore at our own whim and will, and which ones are actually there for a reason?  It gets confusing some times to know...oh wait.  I think I read something about that before...

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce
:i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

What shall we debate next; the meaning of the word 'shall'?  ;D

* Editted to add, I am not trying to start a flame-war, this is actually a great discussion IMO and I am learning from it.  I am also challenging what is being said though, from the level I operate in day to day.  There are some great points and realities being brought up, example:

I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only

I hope this one keep going forward and not down the drain.  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And that's the rub for the Navy.

Don't get us wrong, I think everyone in the RCN is onboard with the CDS concept that we must make good health and fitness part of our culture. It is the "letter and intent" that it should be done during "normal" working hours and prefreably in group that doesn't work for us. And I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only.

Lets start with being at sea: The normal work routine/duty hours are 24/7, with the crew usually standing one in two watches (half crew on half off at any moment). Am I to, say, take some of my ops room console operators in the middle of their "shift" to send them off to exercise on the treadmills, or half of my engineers manning the MCR at that time? Of course not. What about when they are "off-watch"? Well, first, in the short off watch (5 hours), they will have a meal, carry out essential equipment maintenance, carry out essential evolutions (replenish ship at sea for food, parts or fuel, etc.) and some other duties like cleaning stations*. That leaves the long "off-watch" (7 hours) but by your definition, that would be "on their own time".

What about in harbour? Well, first of all, we have short spells in harbour. During those spells, a ton of maintenance and repairs have to be done. They are done by civilian dockyard workers and contractors, together with Navy technician from the various Fleet maintenance units. Now, if my shipboard technicians (which is about 80% of the ship's company BTW) are not present, the contractors and dockyard mates cannot do their work. And since all the work has to be done for the ship to next sail on time, I cannot spare the techs for fitness during what you would consider "normal hours". If I did, the technician, the dockyard mates and civilian contractors would have to work outside their normal working hours to complete the work, and that would entail (for the dockyard mates and civilian contractors) a lot of expensive overtime to pay from the Navy budget.

If the ships cannot sail on time or as required, I can tell you that there would be no consequences for the CDS issuing the policy, but there would certainly be consequences for the poor CO who's ship didn't sail as ordered, or the Task group commander of that ship, or even possibly for the Admiral.

So which question do you think the Admiral would rather answer as follows to the CDS?

scenario one: CDS: Why are your ships unable to sail on time? Admiral: Because I have very fit personnel, Sir.

or

scenario two: CDS: Why are your sailors not fit, contrary to my policy? Admiral: Because my ships can sail whenever ordered, Sir.


*: I know that many people resent cleaning stations and that many think it would be a good time to do something else. But in my book, they are essential. Anyone who has seen illness spread through the confines of  a ship knows that keeping the ship clean has as much if not more to do with the health of the crew than PT.

P.s.: The order of priority for work in harbour is, first, to make sure the main systems are fully functional, then that for each main system, that the primary back-up system works, then that the secondary back-up systems are functional, and then, for those system that have a tertiary back-up, that those also work. Currently, the Navy is NOT meeting this workload even by dedicating all normal working hours to it in harbour. Few ships, if any, sail with all their back-up systems functional. Most of the time there is only one back-up system available should something happen at sea. For some main systems, we are often sailing without any back-up and rely on the engineers inventiveness and resourcefulness if something happens.

Thanks for a very detailed reply, it certainly helps put the perspective on the reality of the Navy (not so much the situation with the folks posted ashore I will assume).

I get the operational 'musts' and agree with you on that, no argument ops take precedence, always.  I do know of one instance, though, when a PSP staff member went on a deployment with a HMCS. 

Ref the part of the techs needing to be there with the Fleet Maint units, do they all need to be there the entire day?  Can they go at 4 or 5 different time slots for say, 2 hours 3 days a week?  That way not all of them would be gone, 3/4 of them would be there at any given time and then not even 'each and every day'.  It would be something and something isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

That is what I mean by the 'do what you can, when you can' aspect that (IMO) both the DAOD and CDS Guidance seem to incorporate into the 'spirit and intent' of those documents.

There is no cookie-cutter solution, which is why I believe the DAOD and CDS Guidance are somewhat vague and generalized.  The real 'management' should be down lower on the chain; more amplification at the ECSs or OCC levels, etc.  COs take it all, see 'what can I do and where can I do it, even if its not perfect', and implement something.

And it can be flexible.  Because of op tempo, leave etc our Sqn PT afternoons were stood down for Jul and Aug and there just wasn't enough people around, with APS, leave, deployments etc.  Personally, of all the COs I've had over my years, my current one really seems to have the PT issue handled very well.  Its' not perfect, and it works. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Ref the part of the techs needing to be there with the Fleet Maint units, do they all need to be there the entire day?  Can they go at 4 or 5 different time slots for say, 2 hours 3 days a week?  That way not all of them would be gone, 3/4 of them would be there at any given time and then not even 'each and every day'.  It would be something and something isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

This is what we are actually doing right now on the ship I'm on, and the time slots are basically whenever you can fit in time during normal working hours.  Some days you can spare people, some days you can't.  We have regular dedicated ship PT periods at the gym as well and it's spare who you can to those as well.

I think it meets the intent of the direction if possibly not the letter, and we are also fully supporting the critical maintenance (and refresher training, and career coursing, annual leave, short fuse taskings, etc).  Something needs to slip though, but you manage the best you can to prioritize things, and make sure whatever you need for the next mission is done.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Which to me is far more acceptable and responsible than "screw it, we don't have time for PT, do it after your kids are in bed". 

 

[Navy_Pete]

It works out not too bad, the downside being it's the same people that are generally out exercising rather then everyone taking advantage, so it's not perfect.

Personally find that before/after work is the only time I can regularly get out for exercise, but find it a good way to burn of stress after running around during the days at meetings and otherwise putting out fires.

 

[Lumber]

Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

 

[ModlrMike]

Looking for opinions.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.

 

[Andraste]

Looking for opinions.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

For me I guess I would view it no differently than someone who drives their car to work and hits the gym for a leisurely 45 minute stationary bike ride then off the bike and into the showers.  If the member is getting her/his exercise in one form or another the venue (gym or biking from home) doesn't see to make a difference.

I had a guy working for me who ran from his house each morning to work and back home again which equated to 18kms (round trip).  I see that as a good PT.  But you are right, I would want to make sure the member is actually doing what they are saying and that is easy enough to monitor IMO. 

I guess if we want to make fitness a culture mindset, it makes sense to foster that in folks in whatever form they can given their work schedule, unit commitments and all around day to day nausea . . . my two cents.

Cheers

Andraste

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.

That doesn't work in every location.  I worked at a location that was 10-15 minute drive from my "office" to the gym.  If I hadn't of been able to go to PT first then work, I would reported to work, got back in my car, driven up Gottigen, got into the gym, changed...walked 10 steps, turned around, got back in uniform and drove back to work.  Voila there goes my 'hour of PT'.

Most units I've worked for (some army, navy and Air Force) we were authorized to start the work day with PT and then start work at "XYZ time". 

Personally, I think the spirit and intent of the PT policy is being adhered to here; the member is doing PT and reporting to work on time.  What PT would he/she be doing after a 45 min big ride? What would be the difference if the mbr drove to work, got there for 0745 and then...took their bike off the back of their car and went for an hour ride?


*Cough* Doing PT and then reporting to work *cough* is something I've seen done before; the people who abused it were caught and dealt with.  Not hard to tell if someone is doing the PT or not, especially when they tap out at lvl 3 on the 20MSR.  :nod:  (back when we had that...) 
:2c:

 

[ballz]

I would let him in a heartbeat. If you don't create an environment that is conducive to PT, you are not going to get a lot of PT.

I swim from 0615 - 0715 on Mondays / Wednesdays. On Wednesdays, I follow that up with a bike ride (working up to 40km, which will take me about 1h20), so on Wednesdays the OC knows I won't be at coy parade. I get to work between 0900-1000 on Wednesdays because of it. If the OC wouldn't let me do that, he is literally blocking me from bettering myself. He should be encouraging me, not discouraging me.

I have had troops that wanted to do similar things. I always accommodated anyone that wanted to miss coy parade because they were doing a 2 hour long workout and we only have 1 hour of PT built into our daily schedule. It's never been the suspects that ask for those things in my experience.

 

[ballz]

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

Not to mention he is going to spend 45 minutes riding back... so 90 minutes of cardio a day. Good on him I'd say.

If he doesn't have a car, how does he normally get to work? Bus / subway / etc?

 

[gryphonv]

Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

This is where the Honor system applies. If the member is responsible I would run with it, as long as it didn't interfere with running your unit. Have him/her submit a memo and get the COC approval. I've seen similar accommodations done for members before.

There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.

 

[ballz]

There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.

If you are driving to or from work, its considered a service-related injury anyway. But if he has an approved memo from CoC to do this as his physical training as you wisely mentioned, he'd be good to go in that regard as well. You don't need to be on base for it to be a service-related injury.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Just to offer some constructive criticism.

There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike

For me it would depend on a few factors like the members level of fitness and whether or not the members bike ride in from work, given the time and distance to their house, would be considered strenuous or not.

A leisurely bike ride to work in my opinion wouldn't constitute physical training. It would also be ignoring upper body conditioning too.

PT is also a great avenue for getting to know peers/leaders/subordinates and exercise the principles of leadership. A member doing it on their own every day will miss out on that important aspect.