Paid for the job, not the rank

[Kiwi99]

Ladies and Dudes,
after doing search through other threads have found little info on this topic.
If a Cpl is doing a sect commanders job (as often happens), how long must he be doing said job before he gets paid for the appropriatte Sgts rank?  Or does he get the extra pay at all?  I know other armies have a policy in place where if the member is doing a job normally reserved for a higher rank, for 30 or more days, he will recieve the same pay as that rank.  Given the fact that in the CF we always have members doing jobs they do not hold the rank for, maybe this is a good thing.

Like I said, just looking for info.  The QR&o and all other pams are very vague on this.

Thanks.

 

[orange.paint]

I know here at the school we have Mcpl's as course WO.We call it PD professional development.No extra money and sometimes no recognition.

Your suppose to know how to do 2up's job.Isnt that a job requirement?

How did it work in NZ?

 

[Kiwi99]

I understand about the training for higher employmnet and to know the job of your superiors.  And that works fine if the situation means that higher rank has been eliminated for one reason or another.  My ppoint is more relating to Canada, where we have plenty of rank, but ddispered around the country.  If there was a Cpl being employed as an infantry section commander for a long period of time, then yes, he is professionally developing himself.  But if a Sgt  gets paid so much as a section commander, then why does the Cpl not get paid the same.  Again, I suggest this only in circumstances within Canada, and only if it happens over a long period of time.  I also use the Cpl-Sgt argument, but I belive this is relatable to all ranks.  Professional develoment is good, and I firmy belive in it.  But, pay is given according to job title and rank.  I would asy that it is 'only fair', but we all know where that would go.

Thanks.

 

[orange.paint]

If a Cpl is doing a sect commanders job (as often happens), how long must he be doing said job before he gets paid for the appropriatte Sgts rank? 

If all goes extremely well 6 years and two promotions. ;D

 

[Grommet]

I know dude.  And it happens at all levels.  I am a private but often find myself taking over the section because my section commander (a corporal haha) is often off doing something else. I guess the army just needs to fill spots where they see fit but the high command takes too long to give that person the rank their due.  At least we get back pay for time served in that job ... eventually

 

[ark]

RANK AND PAY DURING CL B RES SVC
14. Positions shall normally be filled by service members meeting the rank and qualifications required for the position. However, in order to overcome shortages in personnel, it may be necessary to employ a service member who does not hold the designated rank for the position. The Commander of a Command or NDHQ Group Principal, or a delegated authority, may authorize:

a member whose substantive rank is lower by one rank than called for by the established or temporary position to fill that position. Rank worn shall be the member's substantive rank and the rate of pay shall be that prescribed for the substantive rank;
a member whose substantive rank is over by one rank, provided that the higher rank does not exceed the rank of the supervisor, to fill that position. Over-ranking of a position shall only be used in those exceptional cases where no other suitable candidate is available for the position. Rank worn shall be the member's substantive rank and the rate of pay shall be that prescribed for the substantive rank. A member shall not be promoted solely to over-rank the position; and
for service requirements where no establishment position exists, a rank level which shall be commensurate with the rank level for similar duties.

15. If under-ranked for the position, a member may be considered for promotion to acting rank while-so-employed (WSE), and be paid in that rank if the member meets the requirements of CFAO 49-5 (Non-Commissioned Members), CFAO 49-6 (CIL), CFAO 49-8 (Supp Res), or CFAO 49-12 (Officers). Retention of acting rank is subject to the limitations in these CFAO.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0293_AnnexB_e.asp

For Class "C"

e. Under-Ranked. A posn shall only be under-ranked by one rank and under-ranking shall only be used in those exceptional cases where no other qualified candidate is available. In cases where under-ranking of the posn could be long term, the employing unit should reconsider the posn rank requirements. In cases where a mbr’s substantive rank is one rank lower than the rank of the established or temporary posn, the employing unit, with the concurrence of the Cl “C” Res Svc approving authority, may:
1. authorize that the rank worn remain the mbr's substantive rank, or
2. if warranted, recommend to the promotion authority that:
• if the mbr is P Res, CIC or Cdn Rangs, the mbr be considered for a substantive promotion or an acting/lacking promotion or an A/WSE promotion for the duration of Res Svc in the same posn; or
• if the mbr is Supp Res, the mbr be considered for an A/WSE promotion for the duration of Res Svc in the same posn

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/Downloads/Administrative%20policy%20of%20class%20A,b,c%20Res.doc

As you can see in Class B svc, you are only eligible to your current rank pay when under-ranking a position. It is also interesting to note that a position may not be under-ranked by more than one rank so a MCpl in the position of a course WO is illegal.

 

[MJP]

Explain how you get back pay Grommet?  I know exactlty what Kiwi is talking about, and believe me just cause someone does/did a Sgt's job as a Cpl/Jack doesn't mean they get any extra money when promoted or at any othere time.  Keep in mind here that Kiwi is talking long term and back in Canada, not some guy filling in for a couple a weeks/weekends every month or so.  I know many guys that have worked above their rank level for sustained periods of time at both the officer and NCO level and I'm a bit curious about the policy, if there is one.

 

[Sig_Des]

Explain how you get back pay Grommet?  I know exactlty what Kiwi is talking about, and believe me just cause someone does/did a Sgt's job as a Cpl/Jack doesn't mean they get any extra money when promoted or at any othere time.  Keep in mind here that Kiwi is talking long term and back in Canada, not some guy filling in for a couple a weeks/weekends every month or so.  I know many guys that have worked above their rank level for sustained periods of time at both the officer and NCO level and I'm a bit curious about the policy, if there is one.

There is no such policy. The only way he'll get backpay is if he starts getting paid as a Cpl well after his promotion date, and then he gets the backpay as of that promotion date.

Grommet, you having to step-up to Section IC is never going to qualify you for more money. When there's a need, seek and accept responsibility. And since it would be dumb for the army to put a Res Pte as a Cpl WSE because you're covering for an IC being away, you don't get any more money for said responsibility.

 

[Kiwi99]

define temporarily

 

[KevinB]

I was teaching at the RCR BSL for a bit and got WSE'd to Jack ('94) --

  the first time - I think I held it for 3 weeks, as a section 2I/C -- the second time 15 weeks (Admin NCO on a CLC) -- each time was due to me teaching and in a postion the CO of the BSL thought I looked better with a leaf and more money -- the first time I lost money tailoring 3 sets of cbts with rank up and down...

Pity no-one outside the Royals ever thought I should be a leader 

 

[MJP]

If you are officially posted

I think those are the key words right there.  The examples Kiwi and I are thinking of are usually in house but long term, not posted. 

Nice examples I-6, but I think we would be hard pressed to find schools WSEing people that are underranked for courses today.  It just doesn't happen.

 

[Franko]

I know dude.  And it happens at all levels.  I am a private but often find myself taking over the section because my section commander (a corporal haha) is often off doing something else. I guess the army just needs to fill spots where they see fit but the high command takes too long to give that person the rank their due.  At least we get back pay for time served in that job ... eventually

I call bull shyte.....

I know that I've done the job of someone higher than me over the years without any sort of recognition or back pay, it goes with the territory.

I've also know many others that have done the job of a WO at a Cpl rank for years.

The only time you get paid the rank without promotion is a WSE as CSA 105 alluded to earlier.

Regards

 

[TAS278]

OK, even if someone agreed they would simply make the postion requirement to included more rank levels. Problem would be solved and we would still be out money

 

[mechanic_chick]

This happens all the time , Privates doing Mcpl's jobs or Cpl's jobs. Happens alot in the Logistics world as well.  No you probably won't get recognition and no you wont get payed for the position your taking over. I've never heard of people getting payed for the rank in acting. I know there are tons of Privates out there doing way beyond their means , especially in OR's and Bn's. You have amazing Privates that can lead a section extremely well and unfortunately they will not get payed or promoted , recognition at best. Only thing you can do is do the task at hand and get the job done. All you can take from it is experience and if you already have that experience , pass it on to othes regardless of what position your tossed into. It would be wonderful if those promotions could just get handed out ,  if the CF did start realizing this and that we are in need of more authoratative promotions to be made to possibly younger guys who can do the job and free up senior NCO's to get work done.

 

[MJP]

This happens all the time , Privates doing Mcpl's jobs or Cpl's jobs. Happens alot in the Logistics world as well.  No you probably won't get recognition and no you wont get payed for the position your taking over. All you can do is suck it up and do the damn job and LEARN. Thats your payment. It's how the military works.  If you are called upon to do the job you should feel good that they look to you to do it!

/Sarcasm mode on/
Gee thanks for how the army military works....That was exactly what I was missing and you filled it in right there!  Thanks I'll head back to work now......

/Sarcasm mode off/

Kiwi fully realizes how the military works in this regard as do I and most other people in the CF for that matter.  What he was looking for was a clarification on whether or not their was a policy regarding the matter.  And if there was one what did it entail. 

 

[3rd Herd]

  And if there was one what did it entail. 

Dealling with this same issue with VAC. At first no give, then handed them copies of Bn standing orders showing significant amount of time in up graded un paid. Now they are talking about an 18mos of paid upgrade to equal the rank and position I held verses my actual rank at the time. And yes it was common policy to have pte., cpl, and others acting in rank position higher than there own. Mostly it was due to money, limited formal promotion positions due to positions being held by members in their "last dawning" of service and they were being carried on the books. Which by the way was a policy I agreed with. And yes I do seem to remember that if you held a position for a certain amount of time, did well, then it was yours. Of course at a latter date you had to 6s courses etc. Now wether this was just Bn policy, Reg policy, CBG policy or CF is a little grey right now.

 

[mechanic_chick]

Haha well sorry I just couldn't help myself.

I think if we did get payed for it we would all be millionaires. Possibly gadrillionaires. There should be some way that you can just challenge for the rank , that'd be something else. And no not fight your Mcpl for his slip on , some type of testing and recommendation. It would make Bn , Ships , OR's much more happy if there are people who can actually do the job doing the job.

 

[Franko]

You've been in for less than a year and you've already figured out the promotion system is broken and you know how to fix it eh?

I suggest you sit back and put yourself on "Listening silence" for a while before you wind up on the ramp.

The Army.ca Staff.

 

[Kiwi99]

This happens all the time , Privates doing Mcpl's jobs or Cpl's jobs. Happens alot in the Logistics world as well.  No you probably won't get recognition and no you wont get payed for the position your taking over. All you can do is suck it up and do the damn job and LEARN. Thats your payment. It's how the military works.  If you are called upon to do the job you should feel good that they look to you to do it!
http://www.monilex.com/product.asp?rugby=other_monilex_contact_pad_gear&dpid=4&pdid=66

And when they have learnt the job, what then.  It is simply a question of soldiers welfare.  If you  are going to make them do the higher level job, then pay them accordingly.  And again, I stress that this is in a long term scenario, not for a course or couple of weeks.


...and I can't fix it. :-[

 

[Kiwi99]

My apologies, I screwed up the quote thing.