Knew I should have done some research before I opened my mouth whoops!
Opportunity to update the CC-150 fleet?
- Thread starter KawarthaCruiser
- Start date
GR66
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 4,121
- Points
- 1,160
Why would you want to re-invent the wheel? I'm no expert, but I have absolutely no doubt that any savings you'd get by buying a cheaper, used aircraft would be more than offset by the cost of integrating all of the elements into a different airframe.
Quirky
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,604
- Points
- 1,260
Canada bought used F-18s from Australia that need major upgrades, it’s just what we do. Plus the larger engines on the 737Max just looks bad-ass. Since optics are the #1 priority with anything we do, it’d be a great fit.
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 280
No 737 for j00. Aurora until 2042 or until the wings fall off
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,757
- Points
- 1,160
- Reaction score
- 18,405
- Points
- 1,280
What is j00?
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 31,882
- Points
- 1,160
Those will all likely be in full use by this time next year.
I feel like acquiring the 737-MAX - all other issues aside (and there are a few issues with using the 737 platform as a replacment) - it would be a PR nightmare. Right up there with the 'used subs' and 'used F-18s' (Goodness gracious the Liberals have a pattern...) - buying the 737-MAX to replace the Polaris fleet would just be a PR nightmare waiting to happen.
The 737 is a 1960s era narrowbody that has about a quarter of the payload of a widebody heavy Airbus 310. They're not even in the same category. The "jurasic jet" would have almost no functionality as a strat lift or refueler, nevermind the inexcuseably bad engineering and build quality of the Max.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,757
- Points
- 1,160
Canada will dig up some Convair 880's. Spend billions to retrofit them to flyable standards and keep them in the air for 30 years along with our Heritage Flight of F-18 and Tudors, much to the joy of historical aircraft enthusiasts.
Quirky
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,604
- Points
- 1,260
I feel like that's the sole purpose of our demo and airshow teams.
- Reaction score
- 35
- Points
- 530
I just hope we don't try to reinvent the wheel in trying to "Canadianize" our solution.
Looking at the absurd cost inflation of the new Protecteur-class should be enough to make anyone weep.
I understand that the Navy wants the best of everything to protect their sailors. However, if they had simply bought foreign off the shelf solutions there would have been enough money saved to have funded other critical capabilities (I'm sure everyone has their own preferred list), which I would argue would have been for the greater good of the armed forces as a whole.
Looking at the absurd cost inflation of the new Protecteur-class should be enough to make anyone weep.
I understand that the Navy wants the best of everything to protect their sailors. However, if they had simply bought foreign off the shelf solutions there would have been enough money saved to have funded other critical capabilities (I'm sure everyone has their own preferred list), which I would argue would have been for the greater good of the armed forces as a whole.
One of the reasons why the vaccination process is off the rails and we are lumped together with all the 3rd world nations with our hands out hoping to have received sufficient quantities by mid-2022 is our lack of production facilities here in Canada. We had insufficient quantities of masks, gowns, disposable needles and ventilators because we have no production facilities here in Canada. We got hosed on price as a direct result and lots of people got sick. When Israel bought gunboats from the French they had to go and steal them because politics had changed and their dollars were no longer welcome in Paris. It may cost us more but I like the idea of not being beholden to anyone when it comes to procuring our navy, thank you very much. If the national ship building programme had been underway when the last of the 280's came down the ways the Protecteur class would have cost us a whole lot less and the coast guard wouldn't have had to re-equip their fleet with self-bailers to keep the water out.
It's a nice sentiment. It's also why we've had inferior equipment that was bought at multiples of a fair price. Procurement's real utility isn't to actually equip anyone with anything or defend anything. It's to purchase votes in key ridings with 'regional industrial benefits', pork barrell politics 101. In that manner, procurement - while a genuine failure at every single level for decades - is tremendously successful. It's a political tool and has very little to do with defence. I'd rather have decent equipment in ample quantities, at a price that is fair for the country, from a reliable supplier, allowing good capability, than a 'made in Canada' solution at an inflated cost that reduce our actual capabilities - but get someone re-elected, or for ideological reasons.
In any event, there is no Canadian capability to renew the CC150 fleet - or really any fleet other than the Challengers - for which middle of the night sole sourced purchases with fully loaded option sheets seem to somehow be ok... The CC144 is a decent airframe for it's purpose (although a Global would have been better), just ironic who the user is and how easy it is to renew that jet.
It's hard to think of an airframe added to the RCAF in the last 40 years in Canada that wasn't a purely political action:
-Griffon, wrong airframe forced on RCAF due to Bell Helicopter needing $ help,
-EH101, cancelled with massive $ penalties for purely political reasons,
-Cyclone, arguable a criminally bad design, over a decade overdue, way over budget "buy anything but an EH101, that would look bad"
-Aurora is a museuem piece, spending insane money to extend life - profitable work for NS firm
-Airbus was originally a Wardair airliner, forced on RCAF after AC & Canadian airline merger
-Challengers were bought because Cretien was minister of industry & helped got the project going, Canadair needed $ help
-Kingfisher C295 is hopelessly inadequate, like buying a stationwagon to replace a F350, bought for 'regional industrial benefits'
-NFTC and Kelowna Flightcraft training contracts, and the airframes they purchased were awarded based on very political considerations
3 purchases stand out as successes in varying degrees: Chinook, Globemaster, J-Herc. All sole sourced, no political manipulation, no 10 years of studying it, no procurement process, not worried about buying them for regional industrial benefits, merely bought for capabilies, kept mostly per the manufacturer's design (not overly Canadianized). Arguably the Challenger could be considered a successful purchase as well - it is a fairly capable machine for it's intended use - also sole sourced.
In any event, there is no Canadian capability to renew the CC150 fleet - or really any fleet other than the Challengers - for which middle of the night sole sourced purchases with fully loaded option sheets seem to somehow be ok... The CC144 is a decent airframe for it's purpose (although a Global would have been better), just ironic who the user is and how easy it is to renew that jet.
It's hard to think of an airframe added to the RCAF in the last 40 years in Canada that wasn't a purely political action:
-Griffon, wrong airframe forced on RCAF due to Bell Helicopter needing $ help,
-EH101, cancelled with massive $ penalties for purely political reasons,
-Cyclone, arguable a criminally bad design, over a decade overdue, way over budget "buy anything but an EH101, that would look bad"
-Aurora is a museuem piece, spending insane money to extend life - profitable work for NS firm
-Airbus was originally a Wardair airliner, forced on RCAF after AC & Canadian airline merger
-Challengers were bought because Cretien was minister of industry & helped got the project going, Canadair needed $ help
-Kingfisher C295 is hopelessly inadequate, like buying a stationwagon to replace a F350, bought for 'regional industrial benefits'
-NFTC and Kelowna Flightcraft training contracts, and the airframes they purchased were awarded based on very political considerations
3 purchases stand out as successes in varying degrees: Chinook, Globemaster, J-Herc. All sole sourced, no political manipulation, no 10 years of studying it, no procurement process, not worried about buying them for regional industrial benefits, merely bought for capabilies, kept mostly per the manufacturer's design (not overly Canadianized). Arguably the Challenger could be considered a successful purchase as well - it is a fairly capable machine for it's intended use - also sole sourced.
- Reaction score
- 18,405
- Points
- 1,280
And all happening (maybe not the J-Herc?) when people were coming back in body bags from Afghanistan.
Yep, hence my preference for 'capability' rather than politics.
That was very much done during that time period. Contract was signed on January 16, 2008
