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Op Attention Danger Pay Reductions?

There are elements of CCTM-A that move about Kabul and it's environs everyday...not just commuting to and from, but on tasks. Those movements are not just because we wanted to see the sights. They are tightly controlled and tracked, as well as dictated by the threat level...'nuff said on that.

In that case should we adopt a sliding scale such as the US whereby you only get "danger pay" if you leave the wire...(whatever that means now). Kind of like "casual LDA" for CTC Schools even though they meet the criteria for full LDA and are in the feild more than some units on full LDA.
 
MCG said:
There is no “agreed-upon salary, including risk benefits.”  The government tells what it is going to pay and cautions that these allowances may change if the situation changes.  Anyone who depends on operational allowances to look after their family is seriously mismanaging personal finances.

As much as I think it would be great for guys to keep collecting these allowances, I worry about what precedent might be getting set.  What will happen the next time we launch a BG into a shooting mission where troops are living in mud without access to social media and taking casualties?  How long before someone starts questioning about only making the same bonus as their tour in Casa Kabul?

Level IV risk allowance is for when death or catastrophic injury are probable (more likely than not, someone is going to die) while Level III is for when death or catastrophic injury are possible (we don’t expect anyone to die, but we won’t be surprised if it happens).  If one looks at all the BGs sent to Kandahar, 2002 and 2006 – 2011, all levels of leadership were openly, bluntly telling the troops “some of you are going to die.”  The message wasn’t sugar coated, and it was the same message shared with the families.  If one looks at the message being told to troops preparing for Kabul, it has always been quite different.  It is possible that the worst day in Kabul could be as catastrophic as the worst we saw in Kandahar – but that is unlikely.  While the danger is acknowledge in Kabul, the message is that we reasonably hope to bring everybody home safe.  It seems to me that the risk level could have been dropped the moment the last BG element rolled inside the wire of KAF for the last time.  Instead of complaining that the adjustment is happening now, guys should be thanking their luck that they continued to collect the extra money as long as they did.

… and this difference in risk is not the $500 being tossed about by the media; it is about $166.  That is not a bad drop considering the meat grinder for which Level IV compensates.  Arguably, the real shame is that there was not (and is not) a level higher than IV to recognize the attrition we might expect in a more conventional fight.

A similar be thankful argument could be made on the matter of hardship (~ $333 reduction) if one looks at the arrival of TF ORION in Kandahar when whole companies shared common 500 pers tents, there were half the fast food outlets on the boardwalk, no Timmies, no wireless networks, etc; outside of KAF (where most of the BG found itself most of the time) there were no FOBs with laundry, internet, phones or potable water.  Even then there was speculation that the hardship was at the tipping point of going to Level III.  It should not be surprising that the more comfortable Kabul (with all its amenities and nobody living in leaguers) has found its way to Level II.
Yep.  Pretty sure the stats don't lie.
 
Well, if I am reading things correctly, the reductions have been postponed and will apparently now come into effect on 1 Aug 13.  (Op Attention, Op Calumet, Op Jade and Op Proteus)
 
DAA said:
Well, if I am reading things correctly, the reductions have been postponed and will apparently now come into effect on 1 Aug 13.  (Op Attention, Op Calumet, Op Jade and Op Proteus)

Guess we can foresee resurrecting this thread then.  ;)
 
Danger comes with territory
Is DND cutting combat pay really that extreme?

Peter Worthington
The Toronto Sun
18 Apr 2013

It would seem that Department of National Defence bureaucrats want to reduce "danger pay" to soldiers serving in Afghanistan.

The "newsworthy" aspect of this report is that apparently the Prime Minister's Office has asked DND to "rethink" its plan to cut costs by trimming some $500 a month from the $1,300 or so soldiers get in danger pay for being in Afghanistan. This "rethinking" seems to imply that neither the PM nor Defence Minister Peter MacKay were alerted to the plan before it was announced. Odd--and, if true, insulting.

Sometimes one gets the feeling that DND operates as a law unto itself, knowing that ministers (and even PMs) come and go, but DND goes on forever. If ordered to do something, DND complies in its own time, and often the old minister has been replaced in the interim, thus negating the order.

The argument that Afghanistan is less dangerous now than it was, say, at this time last year, is true. Still dangerous mind you, but not as dangerous for 900 soldiers based in Kabul as it was for 2,800 soldiers in Kandahar where they were being shot at.

When coupled with their tax-free status, plus foreign service allotment, a soldier based in Afghanistan might get about $14,000 on top of his pay for his/her six-month tour. This bonanza might explain why so many soldiers have volunteered to return to Afghanistan for another tour.

There's also another consideration about danger pay.

Personally--and I think to many--whatever a soldier can get from service in a place like Afghanistan where roadside bombs are a never-ending hazard is justified.

But surely, just being a soldier, a member of the army, implies a certain willingness to risk one's life? "Danger" comes with being a soldier, and it's a choice one takes on enlistment.

Cops know they put their lives on the line (and are well paid for it); firefighters too, and people who go to sea, or do construction jobs. All face more risks than people who sell doughnuts or who work in offices.

Chopping roughly one-third off danger pay because Afghanistan is no longer as dangerous as it was does not seem extreme.

Perhaps the government should "rethink" its request that DND "rethink" its relatively modest cuts?

It would seem that danger pay would be more justified if ours was a conscript army, and people had no choice but to join if asked--like in the First or Second World Wars. (Soldiers who fought in Korea started as a special force and were all volunteers. Getting extra money for putting themselves in danger never occurred to anyone.)

Reflecting on Korea, one vet quipped: "We expected nothing, and nothing is what we got." The trouble with danger pay and no tax obligations for those serving in Afghanistan is that it raised the living standard and made it difficult to cope financially on return to Canada.

Perhaps that's one reason why so many in the Armed Forces have taken their discharge--an issue that concerns retired Col. Michel Drapeau, a professor at Ottawa University and Canada's leading expert on military law.

He notes that more than 98,000 individuals have left the Armed Forces between 2006 and 2011-- a horrendous attrition rate of 25% a year in a military totalling 60,000.

There's no convenient explanation for this, but Drapeau says: "What is known is that we are constantly losing the base, and there seems no end: 16,000 a year have to be actively recruited to replace those who leave."

Maybe "rethinking" danger pay will stop the hemorrhaging. Then again, maybe not.
Some odd ideas here.  I know DND often carries on knowing it can wait out a minister, but linking that here seems a little over the top.  I also doubt the level of risk or hardship pay in Afghanistan will have much impact on retention in Canada.
 
I'm a little disappointed with Mr Worthington on this one.

He's a little out of his depth and sounding like "when I was in we made do with bully beef and toilet water". Times change...

 
Seldom do I find Peter Worthington at opposite ends of my points of view, but this article borders on that.  I looked at it and found so many "Red Herrings" in his article, that it is only worthy of being dismissed as a "No News Day Filler".
 
I don't think danger pay is the reason the attrition rate is 25%. But I actually do agree with some of the statements he makes.

 
The attrition rate is nowhere near 25%.  I do not know what figures were used to draw those conclusions, but they are incorrect.

I suspect (perhaps) they looked at numbers which included all releases from the CF - Reg, P Res, Ranger, COATS and Sup Res.  Since, to trigger a pension, people must be released, even when transferring, an individual going from the Reg F to the P Res and then leaving the P Res would be counted as two releases; similarly, joining the Sup Res from the Reg F invovles a release and a re-enrol.

Whatever the reason, the "25% attrition" is not happening; Worthington should check facts before writing.
 
I was at a town hall briefing last night.

Part of the presentation mentioned the attrition rates for the past 10 years and compared RegF vs PRes.

RegF for past 10 years is steady at 5%, despite increased recruiting levels in the middle of the graph.

PRes for past 10 years is steady at 17%,  despite increased recruiting levels in the middle of the graph.

So as dapaterson mentioned, it's nowhere near 25% for any one group.
 
Perhaps instead of taking an average, they added and then rounded up to the nearest nickel.






5% + 17% +fudge factor = 25%
 
Some of that information is just oh so wrong!!!

# 1 - a horrendous attrition rate of 25% a year in a military totalling 60,000 -  Last time I checked our manning levels were capped at 78,000

# 2 - He notes that more than 98,000 individuals have left the Armed Forces between 2006 and 2011  -  so 6 years and 98,000 leaving, based on a misinformed "military totalling 60,000" would actually equal an attrition rate of.....believe it or not.....27.2%

But the implications of such an extreme rate of attrition would mean that we would need to hire well over 10,000 people a year, just to maintain a decent level of effective strength.

Oh and on a side note, 98,000 over a 6 year period means that the CF is over burdened with Cpls and Lt's......who is running the show?    :)
 
DAA said:
Oh and on a side note, 98,000 over a 6 year period means that the CF is over burdened with Cpls and Lt's......who is running the show?    :)

trailerparkboyssasquatchhalle.jpg


;D
 
Jammer said:
I'm a little disappointed with Mr Worthington on this one.

He's a little out of his depth and sounding like "when I was in we made do with bully beef and toilet water". Times change...
Agreed, and Col (Ret'd) Drapeau is his usual informative self.  As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
 
CDS statement, dated 25 April 2013:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4741


Chief Of The Defence Staff Statement On Hardship And Risk Allowances
NR - 13.120 - April 25, 2013

Ottawa - “As the Chief of the Defence staff, I am grateful for the unwavering support that has been shown by Canadians and the Government of Canada for our sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen while they are deployed on operations at home and abroad.  That support is heartening and it inspires Canadian Armed Forces members to represent their country with deep pride while carrying out the missions assigned to them.

“There has been considerable attention in recent weeks to the allowances paid to deployed Canadian Armed Forces members while on operations. These allowances seek to offset austere living conditions and inherent dangers in theatres of operation.  I am writing to ensure that events associated with these allowances are well understood by all Canadians, Canadian Armed Forces personnel and their families.

“Canadians should understand that recent changes to allowance levels for our deployed men and women have originated from within the Canadian Armed Forces.  Specifically, a committee – chaired by a Brigadier-General and comprised mainly of uniformed Canadian Armed Forces members – establisheslevels based on input from each of the deployed task forces and advice from subject matter experts such as medical, operations and intelligence advisors.  This body operates at arms-length from the Government of Canada and the senior leadership of the Department of National Defence, and is guided by principles of fairness and impartiality.

“The latest committee meeting that occurred in January determined that the hardship and risk levels for four international missions should decrease based on an analysis of changing conditions in designated theatres of operation.  While our committee followed current regulations in formulating its recommendations, the Government of Canada and the Minister of National Defence intervened to ensure fairness to Canadian men and women deployed on operations by delaying the implementation of the amended allowances.

“More recently, an administrative error that has resulted in pay recovery action for a number of Canadian Armed Forces members who were inadvertently overpaid while deployed to Afghanistan has also generated considerable attention.  Although frustrating to military members and leaders when these oversights do occur, corrective action is always taken to ensure the proper stewardship of public funds in accordance with predetermined compensation rates.  Again, this is receiving careful attention to ensure that it is applied in a reasonable way.

“The Canadian Armed Forces are committed to frequently reviewing our processes to ensure fair, honest and timely rates of Hardship and Risk compensation are allocated to Canadian Armed Forces members deployed on operations. In summary, all changes to allowance levels in recent months have been generated within the Canadian Armed Forces, within established administrative protocols.”

General Tom Lawson
Chief of the Defence Staff

 
What he said, IMO, was that the PM and MND caved in to public and media pressure.
 
From what I have seen in the news......everything points to the fact that for the people in Masir-el-Sherif, it all boiled down to an "administrative error".  As the quarterly announcement regarding amendments to the "Hardship and Risk Allowance" levels were published and announced, it leads me to the following possible scenario's/assumptions:

a.  the announcement was not received by those who needed to receive it (ie; whoever is responsible for updating CCPS rate tables;  or
b.  the amended rates were not amended within the CCPS application (same as above); or
c.  the CoC failed to notify the responsible parties in theatre (ie; Pay Clerks), that those people were employed within that specific area; or
d.  the responsible parties (ie; Clerks) in or out of theatre did not implement the changes in CCPS when notified.

At the end of the day, the MND has to seek TBS approval to "write off" the debt/mistake and I don't see that happening.

I wouldn't want to be any of the above.......which leads me to my next thought.....how did anyone find out about this?
 
dapaterson said:
Chief Of The Defence Staff Statement On Hardship And Risk Allowances
NR - 13.120 - April 25, 2013


“There has been considerable attention in recent weeks to the allowances paid to deployed Canadian Armed Forces members while on operations. These allowances seek to offset austere living conditions and inherent dangers in theatres of operation.  I am writing to ensure that events associated with these allowances are well understood by all Canadians, Canadian Armed Forces personnel and their families.

General Tom Lawson
Chief of the Defence Staff

The DHRC has also changed its business rules in November of 2012 to make things easier for future rotations.  The new guidence is that operations cannot apply for hardship and risk allowances until 60 days from end of mission/rotation.  While it makes sense in terms of providing an accurate depiction of the hardship involved and risks associated with any deployment there is the additional lost opportunity cost for deployed members as well as the admin burden of trying to recoup taxes paid.  Made even more fun if your tour is over two fiscal years.

Expect nothing when you deploy and you will never be surprised.
 
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