I've never been against green power like wind farms. I was totally against the contracts that the Liberals were floating with developers that gave them exorbitant fees for the power that they generated. A reasonable and sustainable supply is a good idea. Personally, I'm a fan of cheep nuclear power to provide cheap power to our manufacturing sector to help boost industry as it did in the post WW2 era.
AB and SK should be powerhouses of power, not powerhouses of O&G.I've never been against green power like wind farms. I was totally against the contracts that the Liberals were floating with developers that gave them exorbitant fees for the power that they generated. A reasonable and sustainable supply is a good idea. Personally, I'm a fan of cheep nuclear power to provide cheap power to our manufacturing sector to help boost industry as it did in the post WW2 era.
blame that on the IESO that said it couldnt be done now wind and solar are the cheapest electricity out there and have been for some timeI've never been against green power like wind farms. I was totally against the contracts that the Liberals were floating with developers that gave them exorbitant fees for the power that they generated. A reasonable and sustainable supply is a good idea. Personally, I'm a fan of cheep nuclear power to provide cheap power to our manufacturing sector to help boost industry as it did in the post WW2 era.
Building and maintaining the infrastructure is a bit pricey but the rates paid were astronomical incentives.
I dont know what the FIT rates were but the micro FIT went from 80 cents to 80/40 roof/ground to eventually last I knew 40/20 for solar. Most of the issues seem to be Ontario issue or even N American. Right now solar and battery storage are kicking everything else so hard. Wind is a little behindBuilding and maintaining the infrastructure is a bit pricey but the rates paid were astronomical incentives.
I think that we're also missing the boat on hydro - both river systems and wave and tide generated. But all that said, SMRs are needed to a) replace older less efficient nuclear systems and b) provide for surge demand and the intermittent nature of renewable resource power generators (assuming storage of power at scale will remain an issue.)
And on their way to be so. Not every province has its head up the green unicorn’s ass…
My recollection is that back in the day many of the wind contracts went with a FIT of $0.80/kWH paid by Ontario Hydro One to wind power producers. OHO sold power to public consumers at $0.09 at the time (obviously there is a ton of subsidization here).
I think the problem is that the numbers are probably all wrong and based on bad accounting after stripping debt out multiple times. The stranded debt is just the latest go aroundMy recollection is that back in the day many of the wind contracts went with a FIT of $0.80/kWH paid by Ontario Hydro One to wind power producers. OHO sold power to public consumers at $0.09 at the time (obviously there is a ton of subsidization here).
In 2016, the average costs per kWh to OHO overall broke down to: $0.06 for hydro electric; $0.07 for nuclear; $0.14 for wind; $0.17 for gas; and $0.48 for solar. Particularly problematic for Ontario is that it produces power in excess to what it needs' Since you can't store you either dump (pay producer to stop producing) or export. Because of competition, OHO sells its excess power for less than the cost of production - on average $0.015/kWh - and much, much more on clean energy. Based on clean energy cost, OHO lost between $350 - 570 million on exported clean energy in 2016.
The fact that OHO was losing more and more money on every new clean energy project that it had to incorporate into its system and that local demand was dropping leading to money losing exports is why the expansion of clean energy projects absolutely had to stop. There was, and continues to be, a need to reform the entire Ontario's energy structure.
All that I can rely on is the stats in different reports. The difference between $0.80 is what many of the FIT contracts were specifying for set years, while there is a lot of averaging etc going on with the $0.14 figure. I included those because it showed the relative costs as between the various sources in Ontario as of 2016.
Plus, solar and wind are not base load.All that I can rely on is the stats in different reports. The difference between $0.80 is what many of the FIT contracts were specifying for set years, while there is a lot of averaging etc going on with the $0.14 figure. I included those because it showed the relative costs as between the various sources in Ontario as of 2016.
I agree that wind and solar as sources are cheap (in fact wind and sun per se cost nothing) but once you take the contract price that OHO has to pay for it then it becomes more expensive than the cost to OHO to develop hydro projects and pay itself for the production. Energy from water is free too if you don't factor in the costs to capture it. Nuclear is similar as OHO generates it itself and doesn't have to pay a third party. For both Hydro and nuclear, most of OHO's capital costs have been paid off long ago.
The one thing that we haven't even begun to factor in yet is the costs of producing and deactivating millions of worn out wind turbines and solar panels filled with their numerous hazardous materials much less those associated with the storage batteries which are yet to come.
I dont think FIT was ever 80 cents microFIT was at the start but not for wind just for solar and then only for roof mounted. Wind and solar are that cheap now and yesterday those are signed contract rates for delivered. They are not more expensive in anyway unless you want to remain fixated on a failed program that Ontario Hydro-IESO sabotaged along with incompetent Liberal and now Tory governmentsAll that I can rely on is the stats in different reports. The difference between $0.80 is what many of the FIT contracts were specifying for set years, while there is a lot of averaging etc going on with the $0.14 figure. I included those because it showed the relative costs as between the various sources in Ontario as of 2016.
I agree that wind and solar as sources are cheap (in fact wind and sun per se cost nothing) but once you take the contract price that OHO has to pay for it then it becomes more expensive than the cost to OHO to develop hydro projects and pay itself for the production. Energy from water is free too if you don't factor in the costs to capture it. Nuclear is similar as OHO generates it itself and doesn't have to pay a third party. For both Hydro and nuclear, most of OHO's capital costs have been paid off long ago.
The one thing that we haven't even begun to factor in yet is the costs of producing and deactivating millions of worn out wind turbines and solar panels filled with their numerous hazardous materials much less those associated with the storage batteries which are yet to come.
I wish all the people that love wind power could come down to SW Ontario( the part on the other side of where Ontario stops) and see what an eyesore they are. Never mind the ecological damage they cause and the thousands of migratory birds at the base of these things.I've never been against green power like wind farms. I was totally against the contracts that the Liberals were floating with developers that gave them exorbitant fees for the power that they generated. A reasonable and sustainable supply is a good idea. Personally, I'm a fan of cheep nuclear power to provide cheap power to our manufacturing sector to help boost industry as it did in the post WW2 era.
According to this report from Ontario Power Generation in partnership with the Ontario Waterpower Association, there is between 3-4000Mw of remaining hydro-electric potential in Ontario. That's about the output of Bruce Nuclear. I think that is rather optimistic given factors such as remoteness, Provincial Parks and FN issues. Although it is 'clean', hydro-electric generation is not without its environmental impact.
I mean both OHO and OPG.
I lived on Lake Erie near Blenheim for five years with a turbine 500m and a few feet from my house. Frankly it didn't bother me either with the view (I looked to the lake and not the fields behind me) or any sound and, sad to say, I think the death of flying dinosaur descendants isn't as big a matter as it's made out to be (I'm a bit of a Darwinist in that respect).
I hadn't seen those numbers, but actually I'm thinking more about Quebec and what it can hydro power it can sell to Ontario.
If bird strikes were confined to small and numerous species of songbirds, the cost might be dismissable. The large less numerous species are the ones at risk. A species at risk has a lot of clout. Ask the people disemployed by spotted owls or having to share water with delta smelt.
I have a granddaughter in university studying environmental things and currently on a practicum with Environment Canada. Last night my daughter was having a running messaging discussion with her about a centipede in Granddaughter's room. Granddaughter thinks of it as a pet; I think of it as a target for my boot. We don't discuss birds and turbines (or for that matter, centipedes) and, so far, she doesn't know of my priorities on this issue, or if she does she politely ignores it.
No doubt, but the same transmission limitations Quebec faces with the US would apply to Ontario as well. Quebec power is asynchronous with its neighbours, including Ontario, so converter stations would have to be built, no doubt at our expense (that and the fact that a lot of Quebec's long range transmission is Direct Current). They are cheaper than they used to be but still not cheap. We could also get a lot of power from Manitoba, but it's further away from the load market of southern Ontario. I have no idea how infrastructure upgrades would compare against building new generation; although I suspect cheaper than building nuclear.I hadn't seen those numbers, but actually I'm thinking more about Quebec and what it can hydro power it can sell to Ontario.
See for example:
We should adopt that as part of a long range strategy before we build another turbine or solar panel.
Alberta: “Preach, brother!”
Ontario is not a beholden buyer. It has a peak generation capacity of approx 40GW, adjusted to ~35GW base load when you subtract 4.8GW of wind and 480MW of solar. It usually peaks at 22-23GW use, with more than 10+ GW in reserve (usually the more expensive and greater CO2-emitting NG plants in reserve).
Of course it's not now, but would be if those who propose to shut down nuclear and gas 'peaker' plants and simply buy from our neighbours. That was my point to the post I was replying to.
