Office Production Paths - CFR or Bust?

[SeaKingTacco]

Can I get a Hallelujah?

The greatest compliment I ever received was from a relatively junior subordinate, after I left a command position, telling me "Sir, I think you made things better."

I notice that he left ambiguity in his statement to you. I like that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

"You will top out at Capt. You will not be retained beyond 7 years. You will not be offered advanced courses."

Again, I can get onboard with that.

 

[stoker dave]

I came from a pretty messed up and financially stressed family. As a teenager, the only way I could see to get a university education was ROTP / RMC. I think the RMC intake includes quite a number of kids for whom this was the only path to higher education.

Closing that pathway would (from my perspective) make recruiting much more difficult.

 

[dapaterson]

I notice that he left ambiguity in his statement to you. I like that.

So did and do I.

 

[KevinB]

Define "resolve". Is UN peacekeeping in Cyprus a success or a failure?

Not a Military failure at least…

Quite frankly I don’t think a lot of Degrees actually teach critical thinking like the CAF/GoC envisioned when the degree requirement was mandated.

Clearly certain trades require various post secondary education; JAG, Doctor, Nurse, and various technical fields.

I’d personally shutter RMC as a ‘mil prep college’ and use it solely for CAF related education, certain mil based technical programs, Staff College, C&GS, and for revamping certain courses to create a better military foundational in the junior and field grade officers and NCO’s etc.

Run a Sandhurst like OCS out of Dundurn.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Dundurn? You magnificent bastard….

 

[Rifleman62]

KevinB can answer this.

Does the USMC graduate this many OCS every year?

Marine Corps: Officer Candidate School (OCS) Graduation​

 

[daftandbarmy]

Ahem... better late than never but never pass a fault, right?

Thread title:

Office Production Paths - CFR or Bust?​

 

[Lumber]

I came from a pretty messed up and financially stressed family. As a teenager, the only way I could see to get a university education was ROTP / RMC. I think the RMC intake includes quite a number of kids for whom this was the only path to higher education.

Closing that pathway would (from my perspective) make recruiting much more difficult.

You can still get the economic benefit of free education through civi-U ROTP.

 

[Lumber]

Ahem... better late than never but never pass a fault, right?

Thread title:

Office Production Paths - CFR or Bust?​

Well, I didn't study English at RMC, ok?

 

[CountDC]

I spent 15 years in the ranks before I CFRed, making it to Sgt. I was 33 years old when I did it, so I still have a lot of legs left in my "second career."

I think like anything, it depends on the individual versus the collective. I met a lot of very switched on DEOs and ROTPs that had needed a little coaching, but were strong leaders, planners, and thinkers in their trade. I have also met quite a few CFRs that at literally in it for "Freedom Best 5" because they plateaued at MWO.

IMHO, forcing an Officer to serve first as an NCM is folly. No guarantee that there will be any experience or knowledge gained from the exerciae that couldn't be gained with a strong mentorship from a competent WO/SNCO.

What does need to be instilled in any leadership entry (DEO,ROTP, UTPNCM, CFRP) is the concept of servant-leadership; you're in command, and your troops will move heaven and earth to get your plan off the ground. Your job is to move heaven and earth to ensure they are well trained, well equipped, well disciplined, and well led. That is lacking in a lot of my sibling officers of every origin and rank level.

And in reference to CFR, I would only have Sgt/WOs eligible, with at least a minimum of 15 years left before CRA. Anything else can be a SRCP scenario.

I largely agree with this but notice you abbreviated one part of the instilled in leadership that I consider important. Your job is to move heaven and earth to ensure they are well treated and taken care of which does fall under well led but I think needs to be spelled out as many don't get it. Too often juniors in both ncms and officers (sometimes seniors too) think well led means micro-managed.

I do not agree with the servant-leadership concept. I have never been a servant and never will be.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I largely agree with this but notice you abbreviated one part of the instilled in leadership that I consider important. Your job is to move heaven and earth to ensure they are well treated and taken care of which does fall under well led but I think needs to be spelled out as many don't get it. Too often juniors in both ncms and officers (sometimes seniors too) think well led means micro-managed.

This we agree upon. I follow the General Patton school of thought that its better to tell someone where to go than it is to tell them how to get there in most things.

I do not agree with the servant-leadership concept. I have never been a servant and never will be.

That concept is less about being a "servant" in a subordinate, catering to every whim kind of manner. It literally means recognizing that you need your team to be functioning at its best to get the job done, and that you have a responsibility to make sure its running efficiently.

I'm not a mechanic, but I know I'm fucked if I dont do any maintenance on my car. I take it in for oil changes, rotate tires, and pay attention to the "Check Engine" light. That doesn't mean I'm subservient to the car, I'm just making sure its working efficiently so that Im not hoofing it for weeks on end because it broke down.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I largely agree with this but notice you abbreviated one part of the instilled in leadership that I consider important. Your job is to move heaven and earth to ensure they are well treated and taken care of which does fall under well led but I think needs to be spelled out as many don't get it. Too often juniors in both ncms and officers (sometimes seniors too) think well led means micro-managed.

I do not agree with the servant-leadership concept. I have never been a servant and never will be.

I like the way my dad put it years ago in a middle management type position on civvy side; people may work for him, but that means he's responsible for them.

He left Scotland to get away from the caste setup, but I think that's a better way to describe the servant/leadership concept. You don't need to baby sit them, but you do need to ensure they are taken care of (and in a lot of cases in the CAF I think, protected from the system)

 

[Jarnhamar]

IMHO, forcing an Officer to serve first as an NCM is folly. No guarantee that there will be any experience or knowledge gained from the exerciae that couldn't be gained with a strong mentorship from a competent WO/SNCO.

The maturity and competence of the officers (LT & Capt) I've seen in the last 6-7 years leaves me with a lot of questions.

Requiring an officer cadet to spend 2 or 3 years as a NCM would weed out a lot of people who should not be officers in the CAF.

We put people through 4 years of school, with 4 years worth of salary, only to discover they're dumb and need to be "parked" somewhere out of sight. It's crazy.

 

[GR66]

The maturity and competence of the officers (LT & Capt) I've seen in the last 6-7 years leaves me with a lot of questions.

Requiring an officer cadet to spend 2 or 3 years as a NCM would weed out a lot of people who should not be officers in the CAF.

We put people through 4 years of school, with 4 years worth of salary, only to discover they're dumb and need to be "parked" somewhere out of sight. It's crazy.

Isn't that what a 5d Release (or possibly 2b depending on the circumstances) should be for?

 

[Furniture]

Isn't that what a 5d Release (or possibly 2b depending on the circumstances) should be for?

The work required to get someone there is immense, and everybody is already overworked making up for shortages. Weeding out people before they out of the training system is far better.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The maturity and competence of the officers (LT & Capt) I've seen in the last 6-7 years leaves me with a lot of questions.

Requiring an officer cadet to spend 2 or 3 years as a NCM would weed out a lot of people who should not be officers in the CAF.

We put people through 4 years of school, with 4 years worth of salary, only to discover they're dumb and need to be "parked" somewhere out of sight. It's crazy.

Clay or sculptor?

Do we need to get better at identifying, mentoring, and in some cases releasing people who are under performing? Hell yes. Do I think this crop of officers is better or worse than what we've seen before? Too soon to tell.

The difference, I would think, is that we have set the bar so low IRT training and mentoring that... yes... we are having issues with junior leaders. That doesnt mean they're any better served by making them NCMs for a hitch (our crop of MCpl/Sgts is not any better to pull from).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Isn't that what a 5d Release (or possibly 2b depending on the circumstances) should be for?

It's easier to promote them away from where they can do the most (immediate) damage to the troops...

 

[dimsum]

The maturity and competence of the officers (LT & Capt) I've seen in the last 6-7 years leaves me with a lot of questions.

Requiring an officer cadet to spend 2 or 3 years as a NCM would weed out a lot of people who should not be officers in the CAF.

We put people through 4 years of school, with 4 years worth of salary, only to discover they're dumb and need to be "parked" somewhere out of sight. It's crazy.

Honest question: Would 2-3 years as a Pte effectively show what they would be like as an Lt or Capt?

 

[KevinB]

Honest question: Would 2-3 years as a Pte effectively show what they would be like as an Lt or Capt?

A much better opportunity for blanket parties