Obligatory Service in the CAF

[M_M]

For OP: buddy can just put in a release, obtain an answer from Ottawa and refuse the sign the documents if the cost is too high. If you don't sign the papers, they cannot release you for a 4C release. It's as simple as that.

He can also ask to have his release date extended from the date Ottawa gives him, in order to cut down on the amount he owes and reduce it to a sum he can afford to pay. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.

Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.

Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, it does NOT include your salary. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!

The chart lists 60 months as the maximum amount of oblig service that can be incurred for ONE period of subsidised education, no matter what kind of officer/NCM training program you fall under.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

The only exception is pilot, in which case they have NO OPTION to buy themselves out of their contract anyway.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, it does NOT include your salary. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp

15.07 – VOLUNTARY RELEASE AFTER
SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION OR TRAINING

. . . . . .

(2) Where in the opinion of the Chief of Defence Staff
special and unforeseen circumstances require that an
officer or non-commissioned member apply for his
release prior to the completion of the minimum period of
service referred to in paragraph (1), the member’s release
may be approved if the exigencies of the service permit;
however, approval of release for other than
compassionate reasons is contingent on the member
refunding all or a portion of the cost incurred by the
public, determined under paragraph (3), for his
attendance at courses as prescribed by the Chief of the
Defence Staff.

(3) Where under paragraph (2) all or a portion of the cost
incurred by the public is to be reimbursed, the amount of
that reimbursement shall be:

(a) the total cost incurred by the public in providing
the course, if the release occurs within 12 months of
the commencement of the required minimum period
of service; or

(b) that part of the cost incurred by the public that is
the equivalent in ratio of the number of months still to
be served (part of a month being reckoned as a full
month), to the total number of months of the
minimum period of service, if the release occurs
within that required minimum period of service but
more than 12 months after commencement of that
period.

(4) The cost incurred by the public on which
reimbursement shall be based shall be:

(a) the amount paid by the Crown either directly to
the institution providing the instruction or by
reimbursement of the officer or non-commissioned
member for fees or any other costs arising out of or
attributable to his attendance under instruction, but in
the case of an officer attending a Canadian Military
College the amount shall be the fees and expenses as
prescribed in the Queen’s Regulations and Orders for
the Canadian Military Colleges; and

(b) except for any period during which the member
performed normal service duties, pay and allowances
including the rate of subsistence allowance for his
rank and status, whether in issue or not, applicable
from time to time in the period for which he attended
the course, but not including

(i) transportation and travelling expenses provided
to send him and his dependents, furniture and
effects to or from the course,
(ii) any assisted leave transportation benefits
extended to him, or
(iii) income tax deductions applicable to that
period.

(5) Notwithstanding this article, the Minister may
authorize a reduction in the portion to be refunded by the
officer or non-commissioned member to such reasonable
part of the cost incurred by the public as he may consider
appropriate, having regard to any special and unforeseen
circumstances.
(G)

It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary. 

At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.

 

[yoman]

It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour or misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary.

Yep. Some guy I know was making Cpl salary while at the college and decided it would be a good idea to release after being there for three years. He quickly changed his mind after finding out it would cost him an arm and a leg... roughly 200k if I recall correctly.

 

[MJP]

[At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.
[/quote]

Talking to some folks in the SEM, that isn't being entertained anymore.  If one fails obtain MOC status and unsuited for any other trade or refuses to try another trade, then they are released.  Upon release they are financially responsible for expenses incurred.

 

[M_M]

Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp
It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary. 

Okay, I apologize for misinformation/confusion. Maybe I should have explained myself better; I should have said "you MAY NOT have to pay back your salary". Sorry. What I stated in my prior post is based onanecdotal evidence of RMC cadets who have released 1 year or sooner after graduation. Several of them who recently left only ended up repaying 32k to the Crown.

So let's break it down:

ROTP salary is about 17k a year, 4 years of salary alone is 71k, if we subtract 9 months of salary for the time they are away at training during the summer, we end up with about 52k worth of salary debt. Tuition at RMC ranges from $1,808 - $ 3,287 per year, so lets take something in the middle and call it $2,400 x 4 =  $9600. This gives you a grand total of just over 60k of debt owed to the Crown, how is it that multiple people ended up paying the Crown back only half that after just a year of service?

It's a mystery of the universe.

What I was trying to say is that if people were actually "paying back all of their salary" (as per the DAOD), they would be paying back much much more. You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.

 

 

[Brasidas]

You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.

Granted, but you can conservatively estimate total liability using salary+.

His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he could be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.

 

[M_M]

Granted, but you can conservatively estimate total liability using salary+.

His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he could be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.

If Ottawa REALLY hates you, you may have to pay the $400k. I'm just saying that buddy here shouldn't be scared to go see what it is based on what other people are telling him because he might not have to pay it back. And most people don't end up paying back their full salary or even a large chunk of it. He really should go see for himself what Ottawa has to say about him releasing.

I have close friends went through the same thing. Many people advised against their releases told them that they'd owe 100+k and I would go bankrupt trying to pay it back. If one friend had listened to them, she would still be stuck on the opposite side of the country from her husband; and another one would have missed out an awesome opportunity to attend law school.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Greetings,
Sorry if this is a repeat question.

As ROTP after completing your mandatory service (2 months service for each 1 month school), is it possible to release before the VIE is up without any negative feedback? As in, could you use the military as reference, provided of course that during your service your yearly performance reviews have been good? Or would it be frowned upon? Basically looking at other government jobs, depending on how the service in the army will be.

I have not signed up with the idea that I will release before my VIE. I actually hope I will make 15-25 years before releasing. But I always like to know my options. And some of my alternatives involves government positions.

Any more info regarding the VIE would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[blue]

More info on obligatory service and release:
http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

Deciding to release before your period of incurred obligatory service has expired, in itself, will certainly not leave you with any "negative feedback" or so-called 'black marks' on your file.
Good conduct/performance during your time in the CF can only help a potential future application to other government careers. I don't know enough about exactly what information follows you to comment further.

That said, there is always going to be some stigma associated with members who chose to voluantarly release during training (including ROTP). It will not stick with you, especially if you have legitimate reasons for release.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Thank you for the answer, the only one yet

I am only concerned regarding releasing after my mandatory service (due to my ROTP) but before my VIE. Mainly I want to know exactly what does VIE entails in regards to releasing before the VIE term is up. This considering from the fact that you can seem to be able to voluntarily release at any time, then what is the purpose of the VIE (or any other contracts). Is it just a job guarantee that you will have employment with the CF for that period?

 

[mkil]

First of all, I am not an expert at all - so I am just giving you my personal experience.

My husband just signed a 25 year contract. I was absolutely in shock that he wanted to sign that much time away. He explained it to me that with more and more cuts seeming likely, signing a longer contract gave him more job security that someone who signs a 5 year. He can release at any point, as long as the proper avenues are followed, but the military now has an obligation to find him suitable employment, or retraining until his 25 years are up.

That is what we went through, not sure if it is the "norm", but just thought I would let you know. 

 

[Shamrock]

Greetings,
Sorry if this is a repeat question.

As ROTP after completing your mandatory service (2 months service for each 1 month school), is it possible to release before the VIE is up without any negative feedback? As in, could you use the military as reference, provided of course that during your service your yearly performance reviews have been good? Or would it be frowned upon? Basically looking at other government jobs, depending on how the service in the army will be.

I have not signed up with the idea that I will release before my VIE. I actually hope I will make 15-25 years before releasing. But I always like to know my options. And some of my alternatives involves government positions.

Any more info regarding the VIE would be appreciated.

Thanks

Releases requested with less than 180 days' notice or during one's first 3 years' service, during a period of restricted release, or during obligatory service require a waiver.  A release during obligatory service may incur financial penalty.

On approval, a voluntary release is a voluntary release - article 4 (c).  One may apply for government employment or re-apply with the CF under this article of release, subject to some limitations. 

Letters of recommendation and references remain an individual responsibility - if a soldier wants one, then he or she had better seek one out.  There is no Department of Character Reference.

 

[aesop081]

My husband just signed a 25 year contract.

No one signs a 25 years contract. No one. Certainly not when one first joins.

but the military now has an obligation to find him suitable employment, or retraining until his 25 years are up. 

There are no such obligation.

 

[DAA]

I am only concerned regarding releasing after my mandatory service (due to my ROTP) but before my VIE. Mainly I want to know exactly what does VIE entails in regards to releasing before the VIE term is up. This considering from the fact that you can seem to be able to voluntarily release at any time, then what is the purpose of the VIE (or any other contracts). Is it just a job guarantee that you will have employment with the CF for that period?

Once you have completed your obligatory service, you are free from any financial penalties and have no further obligations to the CF, so you can put in your release anytime after that.  The purpose of VIE's and other contracts are to provide the CF with a stable pool of employees (so to speak) while at the same time providing its' members with a sense of stable long term employment.  Just a means of maintaining and somewhat controlling personnel levels.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Thank you for your replies. I trust the information is accurate. Unfortunately at the moment I am not in a position to ask someone from the forces for this info, hence why I asked here.

I will definitely stick with the trade I chose until my contract is up, but since the failure rate is high, and if I don't make it, I will be obliged to pick another due to my mandatory service from ROTP, one which I might not enjoy, I want to know that I have options to complete my mandatory service and move on to other governmental agencies such as RCMP or CBSA if that do happens.

I would like to say I will make it into my chosen trade and don't have to worry about it, but I am a realistic.

Cheers

 

[chasechap]

Hello All;
  I have been hearing stories of some Officer Cadets, in their fourth and final year at RMC Kingston, that are being approached and hired by civilian companies, and even some graduate universities.
  How does that happen? I know the company/university pays off our contract, but how does an Officer Cadet put himself into that situation? What criteria must be met? Is it simply good networking and academic success at RMC?
  I understand that Officer Cadets are sought out at graduation because companies believe we are disciplined, leaders, etc.
  I'm simply curious as to how to whole process works and how an Officer Cadet would line himself up for that.

 

[Motard]

You come on a military forum asking how to abuse the system? Did you even think that message through before posting?

 

[dapaterson]

I would hope that members begging to leave at the end of MilCol are given a suitably shitty release item to prevent their selfishness from ever further infecting the CF.

 

[GAP]

I would hope that members begging to leave at the end of MilCol are given a suitably shitty release item to prevent their selfishness from ever further infecting the CF.

Along with full return of costs....

 

[jeffb]

I'm simply curious as to how to whole process works and how an Officer Cadet would line himself up for that.

They would not. Committing to serve for a period of time in order to get your education paid for (both university and military courses) only to leverage that training in order to spring yourself into a career is unethical and I would argue counterproductive to the company hiring. If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada, what would make any company think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"?

Please tell me you are not already in RMC. If you are, then you have not been paying much attention.